Cornfed offroading concerns

[simple]

Hey I went my first time offroading, and, well I loved it. Got a few pinstripes, but thats cool, if I MUST have a scratch, its better that it comes from the forest than a parking lot.

Anyway, about a month ago I put on my cornfed 2/1. I love the way it looks! Driving up in a convoy to the offroad site the runner behind me said I had some good body roll going, more so than the stock height runner in front of me which kind of worries me, but also offroading. Everything except wheels (FJ 17' alloys) and lift is stock. Am I in serious danger of breaking something by offroading with a 2/1 cornfed and stock shocks and springs and all that jazz?

I got my my 2/1 99.9% for looks, and if I have to remove it for safety I will but I'd like not to. Basically I'm just nervous because another member on here likened a lift to the equivalent of running into a pole.

Also, can I put OME shocks and springs on a 2/1, or they exclusively for OME lifts?

Thanks, any insight is appreciated.

 

[Thai]

Basically I'm just nervous because another member on here likened a lift to the equivalent of running into a pole.

That member has also been wrong on more than a few occasions.

However, your concern is understandable. As i have stated in the past, any lift will cause more strain on your front suspension parts, esp. your CVs. However, there are plenty of people around who have off-roaded with Cornfed lifts with no major problems...as long as it's 2/1 and not higher. The lift does raise your center of gravity and since you have stock suspension parts (shocks/springs/antiroll bars), you will have more body roll than your average stock 4runner.

It's up to you. Is there an imminent safety concern? No. You just have to adjust your driving to compensate for the higher center of gravity...in other words, drive more carefully and drive like a grandma! Is there gonna be more wear on some of your suspension parts?? Yeah, expect that down the road.

Good luck.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Re: Re: Cornfed offroading concerns

...your front suspension parts, esp. your CVs.

Not to be argumentative with the new and dangerous Thai :biggrin2:but I might disagree: As I see the CV

 

[simple]

Well I have read a few times that when lifts are installed to check the cv joints to ensure there is no leaking grease.

And this is the CV joint, right?

I only ask because there is another bar, that I think connects to the Arm bar that is slightly in front of th the CV joint that also has a boot like thing on it. But I just checked mine and CJ, you were right, the CV joints look almost perfectly level! I'm not going to lie though, I don't know how to interpret that data.

And Thai, I spoke with some people over at OME, and they said I can order there shocks (w/o springs to not add height) and that should help with the body roll. DO you think that will also aid in longevity? Also, is that really enough, like what components other than shocks, springs, and antiroll bar should be replaced to offset the new added stress?

 

[JB.]

Driving up in a convoy to the offroad site the runner behind me said I had some good body roll going, more so than the stock height runner in front of me...

What Thai said. Also, if the stock 4Runner was XREAS equipped, that would ad to the differences in body roll between the two.

 

[Thai]

And Thai, I spoke with some people over at OME, and they said I can order there shocks (w/o springs to not add height) and that should help with the body roll. DO you think that will also aid in longevity? Also, is that really enough, like what components other than shocks, springs, and antiroll bar should be replaced to offset the new added stress?

I would NOT get OME shocks. From my understanding, they are twin-tube design and do not last very long. A few years ago, more than a few people had issues with OME shocks with leaking or durability. They don't last any longer than OEM shocks (made by Tokico) and, in most instances, wear out sooner.

If you want to help with body roll by buying new shocks, then i would consider getting Bilstein shocks or KYB. (I prefer Bilsteins.) Bilsteins are monotube shocks (as are KYB) and should last a very long time...Bilsteins claim to last a lifetime.

I think that a lift will add stress...you're not gonna get away from that easily (or cheaply). Your lift is not high enough to require a diff drop. But, then again, i am no expert in the different lift technigues.

 

[Thai]

Re: Re: Re: Cornfed offroading concerns

Not to be argumentative with the new and dangerous Thai :biggrin2:but I might disagree: As I see the CV

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Cornfed offroading concerns

but expect that durability/reliability may be compromise. You gotta pay to play....

I read all 3 pages, good thread. I agree with 'pay to play'. I am convinced if the axle is supported properly during lift install up to a 2" lift will help CV strength due to better angles. Now, anybody who lifts is probably going to use a bigger tire which will hurt CV stength/durability. I believe lifted with big tires will be a net loss of durability just not that much... All IMHO, of course.

As far as ideal angle is concerned it would be interesting to know if the Taco's use the same part. I think the Taco's have thier shafts angled the other way. I think it's may be a case of parts is parts... I don't think it's crazy to think that the bean counters encourage them to use the same parts when practical.
:cheers:

 

[Ulfr]

My few cents:

More body rollin' is not bad at all.
like when anti-roll bar is removed, it causes LESS RISK OF ROLLOVER, because it has more "space" to damp the "swing".
With less space to damp the swing, the weight of the body and the force in the body which is caused by gravity and movement of the car, is more likely to cause it to rollover, because it has less movement to release the energy.
If you catch my drift.
Basically, Newton's 2nd law.
=)

My truck can be taken for a good example, it's pretty high and has alot of body rollin' but is very stable when it comes to situation where rollover could occour. But of course I'm talkin' in extreme cases here.

(No antiroll bars and not very stiff suspension)

Hope this clears abit up with the misconfusion that more body roll causes rollovers.
Bad or unskilled drivin' does.

And to Thai, I still drive my 'runner like a miata on pavement when I'm on unpaved roads and in snow.
(It's built for that! )
But I'm also nuts.

P.S.
'bout the CV joint's or boots, I wouldn't be so worried 'bout that.
I have my older 'runner on 38s runnin near stock (just cut the fender flares like there was no tomorrow) and 'bit of a lift (just a tiny one) and never had any problems with the CV joints.
And I'm not the type of guy who drives like a granny while off road.
So as long as you care for the joints (as any other part of the car) it shouldn't be a problem at all! even with 2" lift.
I of course DO have a 2nd gen but it's not that unsimilar...

 

[CJ3Flyr]

And this is the CV joint, right?

But I just checked mine and CJ, you were right, the CV joints look almost perfectly level! I'm not going to lie though, I don't know how to interpret that data.

Yes, under the rubber boots are the CV joints. Interpreting the data... Hmmm, try this: when rotating the rod to open or close the blinds on a window the straighter you hold the rod the better. You can still turn the rod; open/close the blinds with the rod at 'X' degrees off of straight to the little part on the blinds. However the straighter you hold the rod the smoother and easier it turns. If it's straight you can also turn it harder before it breaks. It's like that with CVs but bigger :bigok: Does that help?
:cheers:

 

[Uneek]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Cornfed offroading concerns

As for the stock CV angle, i doubt that Toyota engineers would miss this and create an angle that was not optimal from factory.

Could it be the angle is in there by design on the CV? Most RWD setups that I've seen from builders (which they mention) the transmission output to the diff/pinion isn't prefectly straight and the transmission and engine is either slightly to the side or above to create an angle for the driveshaft so the needle bearings in the diff/pinion will rotate along the circumference rather than stay stationary in one position and wear in.

When I look at my CV angle (stock), the axle end looks like they're higher at wheels than at the diff (the two axles form "V" if the diff is in the middle, but to a much lesser extreme). I would think a taller lift would be the reverse of that--making the wheel ends of the axle sit lower than the diff ends.

I don't know if the driveshaft/diff/pinion bearings theory would apply to the CV, but that's my speculation on why my axles aren't complete straight at stock height.

 

[Thai]

Uneek, you're probably right...there must be a logical/engineering reason for it.

 

[Even Steven]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cornfed offroading concerns

Could it be the angle is in there by design on the CV?

Even if a completely straight axle/CV joint is the best possible way to ensure durability and long life, I'm sure that the stock angle is well within the working tolerances for the CV joints. In other words, when engineers design the suspension, they usually compromise in several different areas. As long as their compromises fall within allowing tolerances for the various components, they shouldn't experience any real issues.

This discussion reminds me of driveshaft angles.... U-joints are happiest when they are straight, but they are obviously able to work at angles. Extreme angles shorten their life, which is something obvious, yet people push their limits all the time when they lift vehicles to an extreme.

 

[Thai]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cornfed offroading concerns

Extreme angles shorten their life, which is something obvious, yet people push their limits all the time when they lift vehicles to an extreme.

Yeah, there are plenty of people out there who have no idea what they're doing and just destroying their vehicle!

 

[Even Steven]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cornfed offroading concerns

Yeah, there are plenty of people out there who have no idea what they're doing and just destroying their vehicle!

A lot of people learn the hard way....from experience. I know a guy who had a Ford Ranger with a suspension lift and a body lift. He kept blowing out his driveshaft and couldn't understand why it kept breaking.

It looked like a mini-monster truck and he had to keep sinking money into it as thing kept breaking. Now he drives a lowered Acura...

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cornfed offroading concerns

Could it be the angle is in there by design on the CV? Most RWD setups that I've seen from builders (which they mention) the transmission output to the diff/pinion isn't prefectly straight and the transmission and engine is either slightly to the side or above to create an angle for the driveshaft so the needle bearings in the diff/pinion will rotate along the circumference rather than stay stationary in one position and wear in.

Good, scratch that, great point about have a shallow angle to improve the bearing life. :bigok:



I guess it's all about the design/type of joint in the CV. Speaking of CV add an R and you have Thai's former bad***, stylin ride.:cannon: IIRC his CRV, had very straight rear shafts. Honda is usually very durability minded so I'm sure joint design factors in as well. Some driveline parts need some angle others don't, that's my hypothesis.



It amazes me how much we know and how close we get on these subjects and none of us are drivetrain engineers! Not to shabby for a bunch of enthusiasts:biggrin2: I wish Toyota watched and posted here to help with threads just like this one...
:cheers:

 

[Falls]

My friend owns a frame & axle shop. I took my truck there to see about the possible consequences of a lift. Either a 1" front level kit or a 2/1 kit.

I was surprised to see the shafts from the axle actually going up to the wheel. Never saw that before in all my ifs 4x4's .

His take was it would be plenty safe for wear on the Cv's and joints to go 1 or 2/1 lift the front shaft would be pretty much straight off the axle. NOT saying there would ever be an issue. Just his take on it after we lifted the truck manually to see where the angles would be at.

He does NOT have an off road shop it's strictly a frame & axle shop.

That was just his take , he feels the least angle is always better for longevity and problem free driving. Maybe here's right , maybe he's wrong .... he's been doing this alot of years (30) and just wanted to get his opinion.

As far as center of gravity.... always get worse the higher you go.

SIMPLE , did the guy in front of you have Xreas ?? Since you do not would explain the body roll being more prevalent , lift or not .

 

[Ruffian]

SIMPLE , did the guy in front of you have Xreas ?? Since you do not would explain the body roll being more prevalent , lift or not .

No he did not. All I noticed was at one point on Hwy 50 once we were above 3000 miles elevation where the hwy turns to 2 lanes and the turns get more severe. Simples truck around one turn did kind of a catch up with where the tires were going. Just a classic body roll. I don't remember what speed we were going. So I started to watch the stock non-lifted runner in front of him around turns, and yeah, around some turns, if driven hard enough, a runner IS going to body roll. It really was only this one time, on a turn to the left. I wanted Simple to know in case he'd gotten used to it. But it did bring up a conversation at our first stop. I think Simples t4r is the same age as Ruffian, and it just may be time for shock replacement. When I'm ready to do my 2/1 lift, I'll be putting on new shocks.
Thanks Thai for the reccomendation on which ones to look at!
M.

 

[simple]

Wow, my thread has flourished into wonderful cornocopia of knowledge. Big thanks to everyone who chimed in. And Thai, I will be looking at some Blisteins!

 

[Thai]

Not to confuse you guys anymore...Bilsteins are very good shocks, but they bring with it a firmer ride. Back in the day when i had my '02 4runner (3rd gen), i replaced my OEM Tokico shocks with Bils. The ride got more punishing. See: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=343&highlight=bilsteins

Now, please remember that my 4runner was a 3rd gen which is NOT known for it's smoothness nor comfy ride...so, the Bils may not have as much dramatic effect on you guys 4th gen 4runners. The way that i see it is that in life, nothing is free...there are always tradeoff. How much of a tradeoff when buying Bils on a 4th gen i don't know. However, i don't want to give an advice without also giving my personal experience on those shocks.

But, Bilsteins are infinitely better than OME shocks...that much i know. Another shock that you may want to consider that provides close to stock ride yet slightly firmer is Monroe Sensatrac shock.

IMHO, i would not change shocks, unless your OEM shocks are worn out. I would keep your setup and just adjust your driving. BTW, if you guys have XREAS, then i would not change the shocks at all. XREAS shocks are monotube and should last a long time...and you would take a big step back if you got OME shocks.