couple towing questions from a T4R newlywed

[blademan]

.....yeah I guess Im married to this beauty...:naughty:

anyway - I cant find anything that guides me on at what weight of trailer should I shift into 4th gear as opposed to OD. Im used to pulling with 7.3 diesels and 454 V8s. I am using the T4r only to pull my 5x10 utility with an ATV or ZTR mower on it both weigh about 600-700# - add trailer, various stuff and the package is about 1200-2000#. Ive got a '07 V8 SR5, it has the wight dist hitch listed at 7000#. So, how bad for the tranny is pulling these in OD?

Also, I am having a heck of a time getting the trailer to ride level. I seem to need a hitch that has 0" drop....but they dont make such a beast, only 2", so when I load my trailer with my ATV, it sinks the rear suspension down to where my trailer is now slightly tounge down off-level. I tried backing my ATV up this weekend as far as I could on the trailer to reduce tounge weight and it helped, but not enough. It seems that the rear suspension is just soft - great for off-roading - not so great for towing. I've read where folks are doing the spacers in front to level the rake, but if you did that and then hooked up a trailer you then have your nose up in the air :wtf:

Any suggestions?

 

[CJ3Flyr]

.....yeah I guess Im married to this beauty...:naughty:

anyway - I cant find anything that guides me on at what weight of trailer should I shift into 4th gear as opposed to OD. Im used to pulling with 7.3 diesels and 454 V8s. I am using the T4r only to pull my 5x10 utility with an ATV or ZTR mower on it both weigh about 600-700# - add trailer, various stuff and the package is about 1200-2000#. Ive got a '07 V8 SR5, it has the wight dist hitch listed at 7000#. So, how bad for the tranny is pulling these in OD?

Also, I am having a heck of a time getting the trailer to ride level. I seem to need a hitch that has 0" drop....but they dont make such a beast, only 2", so when I load my trailer with my ATV, it sinks the rear suspension down to where my trailer is now slightly tounge down off-level. I tried backing my ATV up this weekend as far as I could on the trailer to reduce tounge weight and it helped, but not enough. It seems that the rear suspension is just soft - great for off-roading - not so great for towing. I've read where folks are doing the spacers in front to level the rake, but if you did that and then hooked up a trailer you then have your nose up in the air :wtf:

Any suggestions?

At the weights and aero-drag combo you're talking the V8/auto combo should need no input from you. D should be fine** and it has an aux cooler from the factory. When in doubt fall back on some 'old school' rules: 1) strive to ride with the TC locked. 2) If it's shifting or locking/unlocking more frequently than every 45sec-1min downshift 3) If, when you downshift, it takes less throttle to maintain speed stay in the lower gear, if it takes more upshift.

As efar as leveling with a utility trailer is concerned: Many of us have Airlift or Firestone airbags to help out. See the link in my sig. A 1" drop hitch is avail through many stores, Pep Boys, Autozone, O'Rielly, Advanced etc. You're right, 0" drop doesn't exist (to my knowledge) and 2" is the most common. What about a 1" up-side-down?

Another great help would be to strap on a couple of ramps and the trailer's tailgate at home. Utility trailer tailgates are aerodynamic trainwrecks. (That doesn't help the leveling but it does drive much nicer.)

**In spite of what some (including many dealers) tell you Toyota recommends a 60k interval for trans fluid for those who tow. Doing it earlier than 45k is excessive IMHO but 45k-60k is the right answer depending on what you're comfortable with...
:cheers:

 

[jetboy1975]

Like CJ said you should be fine in "D" with that trailer, as long as the tranny is not hunting for gears (ie shifting up and down). If you're on flat highway and it won't hold a gear then you should keep it in 4th.

How much suspension drop are you getting? 1-2 inches is ok. If the T4R still level or tail high you'll be fine. As for the trailer, it is desirable to have the tongue slighly low for towing stability. If it rode perfectly level and balanced the trailer would act like a teeter totter, making control difficult. Tongue weight should be approx. 12% of trailer weight. (240lbs in your case at 2000lbs weight) That weight shouldn't cause too much sag.

If your T4R is sitting nose high/ tail low, changing the ball height isn't going to solve your problem. In that case your only solutions are to reduce tongue weight or get airbags.

 

[blademan]

Thank you gentlemen!
Like I said, I am experienced at towing with heavier vehicles, 3/4 and 1 tons, with mod to heavy loads, and the dynamics are very different as you know. As far as tail end drop, I haven't measured but it looks to me more than 2" - likely 4-5". It goes from the factory foarward rake to level - maybe a slight (eyeballed) tail droop when I put the ATV all the way forward on the trailer. I calculate this puts about 300-400# on the tounge as the rear wheels of the ATV are just aft of the trailer axle. I did notice that when I did that, the truck seemed to wander around the road a little which told me I was loosing some front-end. Not to be overly critical....but I did have a company vehicle for a while - a Chevy TBzr- and it was more stable. Perhaps because it was part-time 4wd? It did seem to have stiffer rear suspension. It also had a puny 5 cylinder. There is no doubt the T4R is the superior truck but this little issue is disconcerting to me albeit small as it is...
Im taking it that you all think that air-bags would help, so how hard are they to install DIY?
As far as the trans goes, Ive got 62K on mine so I'll look to change the fluid/filter next oil change. Should I change the diff fluids then as well?

 

[Ridger]

Check out the following link showing the schedule maintenance guide for your 4Runner - at the 60K miles interval. Under the driving while towing section it indicates changing the tranny, Front/Rear Diff, & T-case.

Toyota Parts and Service

You can toggle through the intervals and see what is recommended (keeping in mind the driving while towing section if towing freqently).

 

[CAFROG]

Weird that your 4R settles so low. How much tongue weight do you think it is when the quad is in the front of the trailer?

And I would flip a one inch drop hitch. Done it before and seen 3" reversed once.....ouch.

 

[TechWrench]

.....yeah I guess Im married to this beauty...:naughty:

anyway - I cant find anything that guides me on at what weight of trailer should I shift into 4th gear as opposed to OD. Im used to pulling with 7.3 diesels and 454 V8s. I am using the T4r only to pull my 5x10 utility with an ATV or ZTR mower on it both weigh about 600-700# - add trailer, various stuff and the package is about 1200-2000#. Ive got a '07 V8 SR5, it has the wight dist hitch listed at 7000#. So, how bad for the tranny is pulling these in OD?

Also, I am having a heck of a time getting the trailer to ride level. I seem to need a hitch that has 0" drop....but they dont make such a beast, only 2", so when I load my trailer with my ATV, it sinks the rear suspension down to where my trailer is now slightly tounge down off-level. I tried backing my ATV up this weekend as far as I could on the trailer to reduce tounge weight and it helped, but not enough. It seems that the rear suspension is just soft - great for off-roading - not so great for towing. I've read where folks are doing the spacers in front to level the rake, but if you did that and then hooked up a trailer you then have your nose up in the air :wtf:

Any suggestions?

At those weights, you should be OK in OD.

As for the hitch, if you need a 0" drop, use a 2" drop bar, and reverse it. Most ball mounts are designed to work in either position.

 

[Ridger]

This is why I bought the V8 Limited with rear air leveling suspension.

But as mentioned above, buying a 2" receiver and flipping it will level out the trailer, but not prevent the T4R rear end sag. Perhaps stiffer springs, like FJ springs (I think they are stiffer anyway).

 

[CAFROG]

I have been told the rule of thumb is the hitch should be roughly 16" off the ground.

 

[TechWrench]

I have been told the rule of thumb is the hitch should be roughly 16" off the ground.

Unfortunately, that "rule of thumb" is inaccurate, it doesn't take into count the proper ride height of the trailer, or the actual height of the receiver tube on the tow vehicle. The height of the ball should be directly related to the frame of the trailer being towed. I tow three different trailers (boat, utility, and camper), and all three require the hitch ball to be at a different height in order for that trailer frame to be level. In most cases, it is prefered that the trailer frame ride as close to level as possible. This lessens the tendancy for sway, and reduces the possiblity either the front or rear of the trailer will bottom out when transitioning through a driveway ramp or some such change in the road surface. The best procedure to accomplish this is to measure both the tongue of the trailer when the frame is level, and the height of the receiver tube on the tow vehicle. The difference between the two is the amount of drop, or rise the ball mount needs to have in order for the trailer to ride level. If you have a trailer with a high amount of tongue weight, which will result in excessive sag in the tow vehicle, then you need to take that amount of sag into consideration when determining the proper drop/rise of the ball mount needed. Also, if the trailer causes too much sag on the tow vehicle, then one should consider using a weight distribution type hitch to compensate for the rear end sag on the tow vehicle.

 

[blademan]

yes gentlemen, I have tried flipping my 2" drop hitch - I then get the trailer riding slightly tounge high. This is not such a problem except that I am unable to get my trailer jacked up high enough to get it off the ball, with out a block - which is an irritation Id rather avoid. The dynamics of trailering I understand perfectly well. This T4R seems to have soft rear end suspension and upon close examination, the actual hitch reciever seems to be installed with a slight downward slant. I have checked it closely and everything is tight and looks to be as it was installed at the factory. I even took an old drawbar, heated and bent it upward, helped a little, just not enough. I think the final answer will be some helper springs in the rear.
How difficult is a DIY on those? They look simple, but looks can sometimes be deceiving. I think I am going to use those and put some FJ springs in front - with maybe a 1" Daystar.

 

[ALLEGRO]

I would think that a good metalshop could manufacture you a receiver bar that will do what you need. It can be done, at any angle you need to compensate for whatever is the issue with your hitch.

Check and see what they can do for you, probably be your best bet in the long run.

 

[TechWrench]

yes gentlemen, I have tried flipping my 2" drop hitch - I then get the trailer riding slightly tounge high. This is not such a problem except that I am unable to get my trailer jacked up high enough to get it off the ball, with out a block - which is an irritation Id rather avoid. The dynamics of trailering I understand perfectly well. This T4R seems to have soft rear end suspension and upon close examination, the actual hitch reciever seems to be installed with a slight downward slant. I have checked it closely and everything is tight and looks to be as it was installed at the factory. I even took an old drawbar, heated and bent it upward, helped a little, just not enough. I think the final answer will be some helper springs in the rear.
How difficult is a DIY on those? They look simple, but looks can sometimes be deceiving. I think I am going to use those and put some FJ springs in front - with maybe a 1" Daystar.

Maybe I am missing something here? After re-reading your original post and comparing it to your last, it seems that you are talking about a difference of only two inches between the trailer riding tongue low or high. When I said that one should try to have the trailer frame ride as level as possible, I didn't mean exactly level and nothing else. If, with the 2" drop, the trailer is only riding slightly low at the front, and with the ball mount flipped, it is riding slightly high, you (IMHO) are close enough to level for it to not be an issue. If your trailer jack will work with the ball mount set for a 2" drop, I would leave it be. If you really need to get it perfectly level, there are balls that have about a 1" base, which would reduce the 2" drop to 1", which should put you right in between the two positions you have tried. If you are as close to topping out with your jack as it is, beefing up the rear suspension to reduce the amount it sags with the trailer on will only make it worse. Without knowing the type of trailer jack you have, if it is one that clamps to the tongue frame, maybe you can adjust its mounting point to give you more lift,

 

[blademan]

You are right Tech - it is close....I'm just an anal perfectionist about such things I think I might still put some helpers on it for those times when I can use them.

Thanks again guys :cowboy: