Crank No Start- Process of Elimination

[MrSeth]

K dudes.

Yesterday my 2004 v8 was running just fine, I actually heard a little tick tick tick coming from the rear of the vehicle and thought it was just my radio- Im to the point now that I think its the fuel pump.

I have scoured Googled and these forums, seems like the most common issue is no crank no start.... Here's what we've got.

1. New spark plugs- NGK Iridium
2. New Battery- 700CCA
3. New fuses in all IG and EFI slots
4. All wires plugged in
5. No wear-through on Cam position sensor wiring
6. Timing belt done 60k ago

SYMPTOMS:

1. Truck started and idled extremely rough (sounded like multiple miss) but threw no codes- I tried to throttle it out with zero change.

2. Key set to ON and zero noise from fuel pump at all. I recorded this with my phone and listened- no noises, buzzes, whirs, or grinding noises

3. Vehicle completes factory set cranking cycle, you can hear the engine turning over, and it will start to "catch" a little and try to run but no luck.

4. NO CEL OR IDIOT LIGHTS!?!?!

TROUBLESHOOTING:

1. Replaced spark plugs
2. Replaced Battery
3. Inspected timing- timing is in order, no change.
4. Replaced EFI and ECU fuses
5. Inspected cam position sensor, cleaned it, reinstalled.
6. Removed fuel pump actuator/fuse and cranked- no change in cranking sounds, or attempts to catch. Seems like there is ZERO change here whether the fuse is in or not.
7. Broke loose both fuel rail bolts and had some fuel in them- possibly from the check valve from the day before?
8. Tried spare key to eliminate immobilizer, no issues there
9. Hand turned engine to verify no valve slap from improper timing

WTF is going on here?

Monday I plan on pulling the plugs and checking for spark- if the ignition system was somehow fouled up, why would it idle rough for a minute on the first start of the day, but not at least continue to idle rough on more attempted starts? If the ignition is fouled up somehow at the plugs, where do I trace that to?

I haven't power washed the engine bay, I have no water leaks in the cab, I havent been through deep water. HOWEVER, when I was a bit more poor, I did run under 1/4 tanks of gas regularly during my commutes- maybe I did kill the fuel pump?

What does your fuel pump sound like when you prime your vehicle? Has anyone else had this issue? It's stressful and actually quite heart breaking as I just got a new windshield and wrapped up my winter prep and prep for Moab.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated folks,

Thanks in advance.

 

[Trent]

Fuel pump should run for a few seconds when the key is placed in the on position. You said you’re not hearing anything. I think you should test the fuel pressure at the rail. You should be seeing pressure at or near spec and this pressure should hold after the key is turned off. If you have no pressure, don’t assume the fuel pump is bad just yet. Next would be to test for 12 volts to the pump during this first few seconds that the key is turned on.

Be careful, fuel pressure tests can be a fire hazard. Last time I did this, I had a really slow drip in my set up. A fan to keep fumes blown away and a fire extinguisher are good to have.
:flame:

Trent

 

[4Reak Show]

I've seen multiple times where this happens after replacing the battery (or in your case EFI fuse) and turned out to be the throttle body was dirty. Theory being motorized throttle Butterfly gets sticky over time but computer learns how to compensate. Once it's values get reset, it can't compensate any more. Easy enough to manually go in with a rag soaked in brake cleaner and wipe out all around the butterfly while manually holding it open with a screw driver handle or something.

If you still think it's fuel you could also artificially induce brake cleaner thru a vacuum port and see it it runs for a few seconds. Either way, you need to actually test to see if fuel pressure is present.

 

[81runner]

Throttle body would have to completely caked in varnish and other nastiness to create such a symptom...plus to just sort of happen that way. Sounds like you lost fuel flow. Check the fuel pump relay and fuse. You can also, if you have a second set of hands, try to squirt some starter fluid down the intake while the engine is trying to start. If it catches while you're spraying, that basically indicates you aren't getting fuel. If not, something else is wrong

 

[ElZilcho]

This is going to seem like I'm being a smart-ass, but I swear I'm not. Since no one mentioned it explicitly, have you checked that you actually have enough fuel in the tank to run? Don't trust the gauge. The fuel gauge clinometer is known to come out of calibration and report false values especially after a battery reset. Even though you found fuel in the rails, there may not be enough fuel behind it in the system to make pressure and push through the injector.

If you know you have gas then confirm your getting spark (because it's easy, cheap, fast, and then you can rule it out) and then I would do as others have stated, start chasing down fuel delivery issues. Pump, filter, injectors, etc. With no code, it's likely the pump or the filter.

Good luck.

 

[BackOff]

Bad gas? Water in it.

Did you pull any codes?

Maybe swap the EFI with the rear defrost fuse...seems like its the same.


Sucks, right before your big adventure.

 

[riceandpho]

clean the maf sensor and make sure its installed correctly.

 

[MrSeth]

thank you guys for all the input! Being so close to my trip, I'm taking it to a shop near me to have them diagnose and repair it. I tested continuity and voltage with all circuits, everything checks out. I cleaned the MAF and TB with no positive results.

I did notice my gauge isnt showing RPM while cranking- I am led to believe that this could be the crankshaft position sensor?

Im having the shop test pressure at the rails and pull codes- I just don't want to be doing a major repair on my busy street where its at. Honestly, Im glad this happened BEFORE the trip.

Thanks again guys, Ill keep yall updated!!!

 

[MrSeth]

So I got a call from the shop today- seems that I sucked a little furry animal up into my timing belt area- I shredded a mouse and it made me skip 5 teeth!!!!

Shop is replacing my timing belt, tensioners, idlers, water pump, thermostat, cam sensor, crank sensor, and broken timing belt cover piece for $1650 and it'll be done Monday!

Process of elimination made me to go to timing, glad I sent it in instead of just throwing money at it myself. Now I have a nice 3 year, 36k mile warranty on the parts/work done.

Looks like I'll make it to Moab after all!!!

:llama:

 

[AuSeeker]

So I got a call from the shop today- seems that I sucked a little furry animal up into my timing belt area- I shredded a mouse and it made me skip 5 teeth!!!!

Shop is replacing my timing belt, tensioners, idlers, water pump, thermostat, cam sensor, crank sensor, and broken timing belt cover piece for $1650 and it'll be done Monday!

Process of elimination made me to go to timing, glad I sent it in instead of just throwing money at it myself. Now I have a nice 3 year, 36k mile warranty on the parts/work done.

Looks like I'll make it to Moab after all!!!

:llama:

WOW!

I that's sounds like a first time occurrence, who would of thought that could happen!

I hope it didn't damage any of the valves or pistons.

 

[4Reak Show]

Should be non interference. It sounds like she'll live after a little minor surgery.

I'm curious? Did it sound any different while cranking over?

 

[AuSeeker]

Should be non interference. It sounds like she'll live after a little minor surgery.

I'm curious? Did it sound any different while cranking over?

The V8 is definitively a interference engine and it will damage the valves and or pistons if it gets too far out of time!

There are many lists on the internet of which engines are Non-Interference and Interference, but I'll post a link to a Gates timing belt application list, this is an older list but goes up to 2010, if the belt part number has a star by it the engine is a interference engine, which all Toyota 4.7 V8s are.

https://assets.gates.com/content/da...brary/catalogs/timingbeltreplacementguide.pdf

 

[MrSeth]

Should be non interference. It sounds like she'll live after a little minor surgery.

I'm curious? Did it sound any different while cranking over?

I am very fortunate. Mine is an 2003-2004 interference V8. No valve slap!

So cranking it didnt sound different (like a failing starter would sound) it just would crank and crank and crank then sputter and die out. I believe the timed bank was still igniting, but the other was too far off which caused a super rough idle at first.

 

[MrSeth]

WOW!

I that's sounds like a first time occurrence, who would of thought that could happen!

I hope it didn't damage any of the valves or pistons.

Totally a first for me! A little David vs Goliath thing going on here haha.

No damage to the pistons or valves, had them look inside with a scope and they look great actually. So I guess one can skip 5 teeth on a timing belt and still be good! I dont know how many degrees off that correlates to, but it sounds like a lot.

 

[4Reak Show]

The V8 is definitively a interference engine and it will damage the valves and or pistons if it gets too far out of time!



There are many lists on the internet of which engines are Non-Interference and Interference, but I'll post a link to a Gates timing belt application list, this is an older list but goes up to 2010, if the belt part number has a star by it the engine is a interference engine, which all Toyota 4.7 V8s are.



https://assets.gates.com/content/da...brary/catalogs/timingbeltreplacementguide.pdf

Totally blew it, you're correct. I thought I was in the 3rd generation section talking about the 3.4. The V8's are absolutely interference. Apologies for spreading false info.