Cut off and reweld upper ball joint?

[mark21742]

Has anyone cut the end of their upper control arm off, twisted the upper ball joint upper for better alignment and rewelded it inplace to give more/free movement and lessen sideload on the upper balljoint on a lifted 4runner?

Looking at it this should be a cheaper option to the uniball.

 

[88Cleve4runner]

Please don't do that...

 

[JayRolla]

I would love to see this!!! Lol

 

[IBallEngineer]

Redesigning a control arm is possible. But it's not something to do casually. There are 3 angles involved here, Caster, SAI, and Camber. All 3 are important to drive-ability. And not so easily measured.

Then there is the welding issue. In CA it is illegal to weld on an existing suspension component. This is referring to a shop welding up damaged parts as opposed to replacing them. The law is somewhat archaic, but still has merit in many cases. Still a qualified welder can do a good job, and if you know what you are doing the design is plausible.

But you can't just cut and weld, it's not that simple.

 

[mark21742]

That's why i was asking, the upper balljoint binds up at fulldroop acting as a stop and even sitting level with a 3" lift it is at an awful harsh angle.

 

[mark21742]

Redesigning a control arm is possible. But it's not something to do casually. There are 3 angles involved here, Caster, SAI, and Camber. All 3 are important to drive-ability. And not so easily measured.

Then there is the welding issue. In CA it is illegal to weld on an existing suspension component. This is referring to a shop welding up damaged parts as opposed to replacing them. The law is somewhat archaic, but still has merit in many cases. Still a qualified welder can do a good job, and if you know what you are doing the design is plausible.

But you can't just cut and weld, it's not that simple.

Thank you. Yeah i guess i wrote it as a dumbed down post. Ive done lots of fab work on other things, just not a factory control arm.
What i was really looking at was cutting and rolling the end of the control arm up then rebracing/welding inplace to give the upper balljoint a better (more stock) angle instead of what we have when lifted.

 

[mark21742]

I was looking at basically a °15-max °20 "adjustment

 

[JayRolla]

I was looking at basically a °15-max °20 "adjustment

Here is my opinion. If you are good at fab work and can get the angles correct you should not be asking us if it's possible. Imo buy a set of uca's that have already done the homework.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Thank you. Yeah i guess i wrote it as a dumbed down post. Ive done lots of fab work on other things, just not a factory control arm.
What i was really looking at was cutting and rolling the end of the control arm up then rebracing/welding inplace to give the upper balljoint a better (more stock) angle instead of what we have when lifted.

So the point of my response was to question "can YOU do it", not to make you look bad or anything. So again I will discuss the alignment angles. Everyone talks about the inability to set correct caster after a lift. But no one talks about SAI, that is the angle created by a line intersecting the upper and lower ball joints when viewed from either the front or rear of the vehicle.

When you lift the truck, essentially allowing it to stay in the drooped position, you reduce SAI, losing some self centering and directional stability. You also lose camber but that can be adjusted away, to the detriment of SAI mind you.

By "rolling" the upper arm out to make the upper ball joint more perpendicular to the spindle, you are gaining camber, but once again reducing SAI.

So the fab work is important, but SO IS the design.

People do all kinds of stupid shit and get away with it, doesn't make it the right thing to do. As someone previously stated, if you have to ask about this, you probably aren't the right person to do it, at least not yet. But if you can properly plan it, with all the right ANGLES accounted for, then I'm sure it can be done. So you can BECOME the right person!

 

[mark21742]

No offense taken at all!

Not really looking for someone to do all the math for me, but more looking to see if anyone tried it with or without success. IBALLENGINEER, i take your words seriously and thank you for taking the time to respond. I know lots of people get frustrated reading posts of pipedreams from peoples ideas that have no business touching a vehicle (specialy) something like suspension. ...

As for more of my background i have 20+ years in automotive mechanics and fab work. Ive built several motorcycles from the ground up including building the chassises from scratch, built several tube chassis cars from the ground up.

I have no problem making jigs for custom work, but honestly the front dpuble wishbone geometry (which you touched on) is my weak point that i haven't done much of especially in the case of a 4x4 that has MUCH more movement up and down than anything i have ever worked with (most i have worked on had maybe 3" of travel max at the hub).

 

[RonJR]

Given a particular spindle/hub design, the SAI is directly related to the camber angle. Change one, you change the other by the same amount. So, if you get the camber correct, the SAI will be correct unless you've modified or damaged the spindle and other components that reside between the ball joints.

That being said, there are several aftermarket UCA's that will solve the OP's problem. I think I would go that way rather than trust a welding job on a critical suspension component.

 

[Dezert4Runner]

Honestly, Light Racing UCA's would be a good balance between budget friendly and "let's make it home alive" to even bother with hacking up some stock UCA's. Making your own with the type of fab experience you have would be cool, but it's certainly not an easy feat when taking into account all of the geometry you'd need to get right plus the cost of the Uniballs. Not to mention, Uniballs are not for everyone since they don't do too well in road salt areas.

 

[JayRolla]

Honestly, Light Racing UCA's would be a good balance between budget friendly and "let's make it home alive" to even bother with hacking up some stock UCA's. Making your own with the type of fab experience you have would be cool, but it's certainly not an easy feat when taking into account all of the geometry you'd need to get right plus the cost of the Uniballs. Not to mention, Uniballs are not for everyone since they don't do too well in road salt areas.

I love my SPC's. With the ability to add or remove up to 4* caster really gives the ability to fine tune the caster to clear large tires like 35's compared to uniballs that just add 2* to bring it back to stock caster angle.