Damage using tie-down loops during a recovery?

We’ve all heard it. Don’t use the loops under the bumper for recovery. Get some aftermarket recovery points, preferably rated, or a winch bumper. I know the owner's manual says the loops may be used for towing short distances on smooth ground. I’ve heard all the warnings, but what I haven’t heard is accounts of actual incidents of damage. So if you’ve experienced any then sing out!

If you haven’t experienced any damage using tow loops for recovery,
kindly do not sing out.​​
 
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I've used them to pull people out that got highcentered on the beach. Nice and easy and you are probably going to be fine.

I wouldn't use a kinetic rope on them though.

Worst case is the weld breaks and the loop and shackle is shot out at the other truck at unfriendly speed, so be careful.
 
you won't find any accounts of those 'tie downs' breaking because they are perfectly suitable for recovery. if you do anything with enough stupidity something will break even an aftermarket recovery point. I also have not heard of ONE SINGLE incident where: they loops got bent, broken, or the radiator support or whatever they are attached to gets damaged.

you can even use a bridle to distribute load. yes I realize they aren't rated by toyota but that doesn't mean they can't be used. companies will sell products claiming that the toyota loops aren't safe and that the recovery points they are selling are rated etc. nothing wrong with that but we mustn't always believe the marketing fluff

there's a video of matts off road recovery pulling a 4runner sideways through heavy mud with just one of those loops. and it was a 4th gen 4runner which I believe has a less beefy tow loop. those welds are strong and is solid rod welded straight through. there are two things though that I like about aftermarket recovery points: added insurance from a break and they are easier to access for a shackle but the cost of them is just ridiculous, I can live without them

The Next Cry Baby - Toyota 4Runner - YouTube
 
I have wondered this exact question myself. I may buy aftermarket front recovery points later. I bought a good shackle block for the rear.
 
We’ve all heard it. Don’t use the loops under the bumper for recovery. Get some aftermarket recovery points, preferably rated, or a winch bumper.
Anyone who says that has no idea what they're talking about. The OEM loops are welded on both sides of a fully boxed frame section, and have internal bracing.
 
Anyone who says that has no idea what they're talking about. The OEM loops are welded on both sides of a fully boxed frame section, and have internal bracing.

Can you analyze the tie down hooks and provide a strength rating with an engineering stamp? After that can you provide a scenario specific rigging plan proving none of the recovery gear is going to exceed its limits?

That's what the recovery professionals do and that's why from a legal standpoint they would tell you not to use these hooks. 4x4 recovery groups get criticized for being slow and methodical during their recoveries but they are reviewing this info and running through scenarios and safest methods.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies so far.

Anyone who says that has no idea what they're talking about. The OEM loops are welded on both sides of a fully boxed frame section, and have internal bracing.
Yes. The loops are >⅝ inches thick, go all the way through the front frame member, and are welded 360° front and back for a total of 8 inches of weld per loop. Barring severe rust issues they are not pulling out.

Can you analyze the tie down hooks and provide a strength rating with an engineering stamp? After that can you provide a scenario specific rigging plan proving none of the recovery gear is going to exceed its limits?

That's what the recovery professionals do and that's why from a legal standpoint they would tell you not to use these hooks. 4x4 recovery groups get criticized for being slow and methodical during their recoveries but they are reviewing this info and running through scenarios and safest methods.
Ive seen plenty of recovery videos and I haven’t seen anyone break out a calculator once. ;-) While I’m no engineer, I do have 25 years of experience as a rigger. And though rigging methodology employs less math and more rules of thumb, after a while one develops a spider-sense. And my spider-sense tells me that an aftermarket recovery point like those offered by Treaty Oak is not as strong as the factory loops (especially when pulling at an angle), and that the one offered by Apex Overland is probably stronger than factory. But I also have a hunch that the factory loops come under the heading of “plenty strong enough.” It would be great if we, the end users, had the ability to determine a rating for the factory loops, or for the frame and threads that the aftermarket offerings mount to. But we don’t. What we do have is individual experiences that we can share. Hence the question:

Has anyone suffered damage using the factory tie-down loops for a recovery?
 
I’m not looking for a debate or fight here. What I’m trying to do is discover if the weakness in the factory loops that cause folks to purchase aftermarket recovery points is real or imagined. I’ve heard a lot about the possibility of a failure, but I’ve never actually heard of one.
 
First, your nomenclature is wrong. They are not tie down points used when the vehicle is put on a ship to the US or on trucks for shipping to a dealer. The real tie down points are always oval holes in the frame that a hook is put through.

You will find the 4Runner real tie down points just behind the front sway bar mount, and just in front of the rear trailing arm.

Thus, the loops on the front are put there for towing/recovery. I’m sure the engineers at the factory made them strong enough for their intended purpose.
 
First, your nomenclature is wrong. They are not tie down points used when the vehicle is put on a ship to the US or on trucks for shipping to a dealer. The real tie down points are always oval holes in the frame that a hook is put through.

You will find the 4Runner real tie down points just behind the front sway bar mount, and just in front of the rear trailing arm.

Thus, the loops on the front are put there for towing/recovery. I’m sure the engineers at the factory made them strong enough for their intended purpose.
Did they design the front loops strong enough for most non-snatch recoveries? Apparently so, we never hear of problems with them. Did Toyota feel confidently enough in them to call them a normal tow point or give them a rated working load limit? Nope. Manual calls them "emergency towing eyelets" and provides the following language: "If a tow truck is not available in an emergency, your vehicle may be temporarily towed using cables or chains secured to the emergency towing eyelet(s). This should only be attempted on hard-surfaced roads for at most 50 miles (80 km) at under 18 mph (30 km/h)."
 
Watch this video starting at 7:00 and watch the LoPro briefly pull away from the grill due to the moment applied in a dynamic kinetic pull.
Wow. I was amazed at how much that winch bumper pulled away. But I don’t want to get lost in the weeds here. Remember the point of this thread: Let’s hear from people who have experienced damage using the factory loops for recovery. So far that number is zero.
 
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Can you analyze the tie down hooks and provide a strength rating with an engineering stamp?\s.

can aftermarket bolt on kits provide engineering or do you just go with "these are off road rated"

i buried ours to the frame rails front to back, the entire 4runner. guess what we used to yank it out.
 
Wow. I was amazed at how much that winch bumper pulled away. But I don’t want to get lost in the weeds here. Remember the point of this thread: Let’s hear from people who have experienced damage using the factory loops for recovery. So far that number is zero.
I understand and would like to see if someone had a fail. I’m going to be surprised if there are any, other than maybe a bent D-ring, which would render it useless, IMO.
 
I’ve also used them to yank a 4th Gen out of mud without issue or drama.

Recovery is a process going through various escalating options. Obviously, don’t get stuck is option 1. Driving yourself out is option 2. Using a your winch is option 3. And on and on and on until you get to needing someone to pull / tug you out – then the preferred method is from the rear hitch but if that’s not possible then these hooks come into play. Remember, you are stuck, need to get unstuck and nothing else worked so the worst case scenario is breaking them and getting unstuck, which is not ideal but still better than walking out. And No, I’ve never heard of any real life examples of them breaking but that doesn't mean it never ever happened.


there's a video of matts off road recovery pulling a 4runner sideways through heavy mud with just one of those loops. and it was a 4th gen 4runner which I believe has a less beefy tow loop. those welds are strong and is solid rod welded straight through. there are two things though that I like about aftermarket recovery points: added insurance from a break and they are easier to access for a shackle but the cost of them is just ridiculous, I can live without them

The Next Cry Baby - Toyota 4Runner - YouTube

What’s the thought behind engaging the parking brake for the pivot?
 
Can you analyze the tie down hooks and provide a strength rating with an engineering stamp? After that can you provide a scenario specific rigging plan proving none of the recovery gear is going to exceed its limits?

That's what the recovery professionals do and that's why from a legal standpoint they would tell you not to use these hooks. 4x4 recovery groups get criticized for being slow and methodical during their recoveries but they are reviewing this info and running through scenarios and safest methods.

no one has yet provided evidence that structurally these hooks cannot stand up to a recovery. also no one has provided structural evidence that they can be used haha. but many people have used them without incident multiple times so there are real world examples of them being strong enough and no one has had them break. they clearly work well

none of the aftermarket recovery hook providers have provided this information other than reference the owners manual. also I have not seen any published work from apex or treaty oak that support their claims of WLL. also aftermarket recovery points cannot be side loaded, the OEM 'tie downs' with how they are welded will be much better at a side load
 
. This should only be attempted on hard-surfaced roads for at most 50 miles (80 km) at under 18 mph (30 km/h)."

That limitation is due to the automatic transmission and transfer case, not due to the strength of the loops. Even when the transfer case is in neutral, the oil pump doesn’t work and the gears don’t get lubed.
 
This has already been beat to death.

they are 14mm dia rod each side would have a cross sectional area of just under 0.25 square inches. If they are made of basic mild steel typically known as "A36" (ultimate tensile strength of 58,000-80,000lbs) they have a tensile strength at the conservative end of 58,000 x 0.25 or 14,500lbs. That's for each side of the loop. When you pull on it, you spread the load to both sides evenly in a straight forward pull. So you're approximately 29,000lbs of ultimate tensile strength in a straight line pull. That's assuming mild steel. If they're any of the higher strength steel materials it could easily be double that. I have to assume low carbon steel given that I have no idea what it is.

It's very hard to model exactly what kind of force you'll actually apply with a tow strap. I don't love them because you rely on imprecise loads and rely heavily on shock loads that are often dangerous. That's why a winch is almost always my first choice.

Normally I'd like at least a safety factor of 2, but that's not always realistic in these situations. To put the loads into a little perspective -
* a loaded 4runner is rarely over 6000lbs.
*The synthetic rope on my 9500lb winch is rated for 17,500lbs.
*Most winch mounts are attached to the front frame flange by 8 8mm bolts. Each bolt has a rated thread tearout strength of about 16kn (3,597 lbs). The entire winch mount has a tearout strength of around 28,700lbs. About the same as one of those tie down hoops. (My winch has tie plates that also run back to the mounting points that the recovery points proposed in this thread use - so it's stronger than some, but it's probably overkill. I'm overly cautious.)
*if you hit the end of a tow strap at 20mph, depending on ton of factors including the strap its self, you could easily exceed 100,000lbs of force and break almost anything including the frame its self. There is no tow hook that would withstand some types of abuse. Use a snatch strap if possible to dampen the forces, and start small. If you need 3 or 5 attempts to get unstuck - that's totally fine. Go a little harder each time rather than just flooring it on the first shot. It's always easier to spend an extra 5 minutes to get safely unstuck than trying to figure out how to get unbroken.

The "rated" recovery points are usually made from 1/2" steel plate in some 50 series material. That material has a higher yield point (- it resists bending more) but basically the same (or sometimes lower) ultimate tensile strength (when it actually fractures). The cross sectional area of the final loop they make is usually 1/2x1/2 or... 0.25 square inches. Meaning they have relatively similar ultimate tensile strength and tearout properties as your OEM recovery point.

What they DONT have is a comparably strong connection to the frame. The OEM points are welded in 4 locations that spread the loading to the frame bracket. The aftermarket ones are bolted through only 2 or sometimes 3 points with relatively small weldnuts holding them in place. In a sideways pull on the front end - that's not uncommon in my experience - you now are putting significant leverage against the first bolt forward on that recovery point. There's a good chance it will fail. It's much weaker than the OEM recover point in that orientation. That's where you'll have potential to damage your vehicle or hurt someone.

The OEM points are strong enough for me. I would save your $ for a winch instead of spending a bunch of $ on something that is marginally stronger in a direct forward pull and significantly weaker in side loads.

If any of the aftermarket sellers are claiming that the factory loops are dangerous or insufficient - they are lying to you to try to sell you something you don't need. If you want shiny red farkle - only you can decide if it's worth it or not. But in the real world, even if you have both, you should probably still use the loops. They're better.
 
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