Damage using tie-down loops during a recovery?

[jp.vegas]

Sounds like the marketing push to buy a product that's 4 times as expensive to do the same thing. Like rated recovery hooks.

How do you know what materials are used?

Have you measured the elasticity?

Have you ever had a end loop fail?

I'm open to being convinced. But unsupported claims by sellers aren't convincing. They don't pass the basic logic test to me.

The end loop failure is total nonsense. We can just skip that one.

The difference in nylon fiber vs nylon fiber - I've not found any supporting info on what the difference is. I've yet to even see anyone publish what manufacturer they're sourcing from. My guess is that the sellers don't know where they come from.

Elasticity - that's a function of the properties of the fiber and the relative orientation of the fiber strands.

I'm not writing a dissertation on the issue. Do the research yourself and learn.

Dynamic ropes aren't some new-fangled thing in general. Climbers have understood the properties of these for ages. What is new is the application of proven principles to supplant old fashioned thinking.

 

[Grug556]

Sounds like the marketing push to buy a product that's 4 times as expensive to do the same thing. Like rated recovery hooks.

How do you know what materials are used?

Have you measured the elasticity?

Have you ever had a end loop fail?

I'm open to being convinced. But unsupported claims by sellers aren't convincing. They don't pass the basic logic test to me.

The end loop failure is total nonsense. We can just skip that one.

The difference in nylon fiber vs nylon fiber - I've not found any supporting info on what the difference is. I've yet to even see anyone publish what manufacturer they're sourcing from. My guess is that the sellers don't know where they come from.

Elasticity - that's a function of the properties of the fiber and the relative orientation of the fiber strands.

Nylon comes in various types as most people know from 6 to 11. Likely its also blended with other fibers for improved elasticity. Possibly other fibers such as aramids are used. One of the issues with use of aramids in conjunction with Nylons is that Aramids generally suffer from longterm UV degradation which would likely lower the elasticity substantially.

Straps vs Ropes? Get me a strap and rope made of identical material, than setup a real world stretch to failure test. I think at the end of the day the numbers would be comparable.

I have alot of straps, I dont get the storage issue as the higher quality ones come with their own stow bags.

Perhaps its time to add some ropes to!

 

[Tcw1184]

A Bone-Stock Toyota 4Runner Takes on Tumbleweed. It Does Not Go Well! Can We Even Get It Unstuck? - YouTube

Skip to 13:20. Winching off the eyelet. Now, these guys don’t really seem like they know what they’re doing, but still, eyelet seemingly survived just fine being pulled up the hill and out of the mud with a winch.

 

[Jetboy]

I think the sine/square wave analogy has some merit when comparing a non-elastic tether to an elastic tether - either a traditional tow strap, a chain, wire rope, etc. vs a snatch strap or recovery rope. In practice - polyester vs nylon. There's a big benefit to using the minimum necessary force and the elastic straps and ropes do that well. The analogy doesn't necessarily fit the comparison between a snatch strap and a recovery rope very well - because they do the same thing. When Matt's Offroad did a back to back comparison the strap was a softer pull. Just one sample event. But it's hard to make a comparison without some measurable data.

The biggest red flag for me is that same arguments for the rope are repeated nearly verbatim. The stitched loop part especially. Yes they are stitched. No, the stitching doesn't fail. That's such a stretch of an argument that it doesn't pass the basic smell test. Rigging straps, seat belts, limit straps, you name it - they all stitch the ends and they last the lifetime of the strap. It's a non-issue on any properly manufactured strap. The same is true about the claim that a snatch strap can only be used a few times. Does the elastic stretching break down the fiber? sure. Does it change them differently in a rope vs a strap? I don't think so. The only way this would make sense is if the rope is woven in such a way that each strand is stretched less as a percentage of its length - basically a 3 strand twisted rope or something similar (equivalent of using a longer rope or strap). The two arguments repeated suggest to me that it's not an original thought by the various sources - but rather a hallmark of a marketing campaign that couldn't find anything better. What I'm not seeing is any actual testing on testing equipment. And that equipment exists and I can find plenty of tests for straps and other ropes including snatch straps. If anyone has a link to an actual independent test, please post it. I'd love to see it. I'm open to being convinced. But not without some sort of evidence. Here's one for straps: SNATCH STRAP COMPARISON - Unsealed 4X4 . Incidentally - some of the straps are as low as 10% elasticity and some as high as 25%. And only loosely correlated with cost.

The real benefit I can see is that they are more elastic if they actually are. 50% more as claimed is significant. If that is in fact true AND the elasticity is roughly linear in effective spring rate or at least more linear than the strap. If the first half of the stretch is under low tension - then it's not useful. But if we assume it's the same type of elasticity, but more of it - that's definitely a good thing. It gives you more room for error in the pulling vehicle to hit the end of the rope harder without damaging something and that means less attempts to pull to get to the minimum force necessary and less peak stress on the vehicles. Is it worth the extra space, weight, and cost? Possibly. It depends on how often you use it. I've had a strap hooked to my 4Runner once in 8 years. It's rare for me to find a situation where I wouldn't prefer to use a winch or have to use one. I also rarely see soft sand. I tend to think of that as the situation where it makes the most sense to use a strap. It's difficult to anchor against anything so using momentum is often the best option.

The lack of hard information is a problem either testing on product info. When I need rigging for my sailboat - I can call Samson Rope and they can tell me everything I ever wanted to know about a piece of rope, what testing was done, where it was made, what the fibers are, specific elastic elongation at measured tension for each rope product they offer. Every product they offer is tested and the results are available. I don't see any of those indicia of quality or testing from the recovery rope resellers (or the snatch straps). If any of the rope manufacturers wanted to prove their product was actually more elastic - it would be easy and relatively inexpensive to do at a testing lab. And many claim to be lab tested. Where are the test results? I'll email a few and see if they'll send them. Then we can compare with known test results.

 

[Captain Spalding]

Thanks for another great post.

Back to the topic: I posted on three different boards a week ago asking if anyone has suffered damage using the factory loops for recovery. After a week, only one incident was reported. And report was “I have not personally experienced it, but I have personally seen a 5th Gen with one of the 2 on the front ripped off. They said it broke trying to pull it out of a mud pit.”

So, one report.

 

[honda250xtitan]

Thanks for another great post.

Back to the topic: I posted on three different boards a week ago asking if anyone has suffered damage using the factory loops for recovery. After a week, only one incident was reported. And report was “I have not personally experienced it, but I have personally seen a 5th Gen with one of the 2 on the front ripped off. They said it broke trying to pull it out of a mud pit.”

So, one report.

mud is stupid. dont go in mud. ever. Arizona FTW

 

[Jetboy]

This is being pulled by one of the front tow points from a winch on Marlin's red truck off to the right on the big ledge on Gold Bar Rim in Moab. I cut my winch rope on the appraoch - it was too steep and the fairlead hit rock first and pinch cut the winch rope clean off. Win for synthetic rope - I could just shorten a bit and put the hook back on with a splice. But it was faster to get a pull rather than make folks wait.

 

[honda250xtitan]

used the rear tie down point to recover a chevy 1500 up a hill this weekend. nobody died, no frames were bent. didnt even use a fancy kinetic rope, just a good old recovery strap.