Dealer Tech Opinion - Recent 10K Service

[Lester Lugnut]

10K ToyotaCare service done on wifes 2014 4Runner SR5 this past Wed. Checked torque on lug nuts when I got home. 2-3 lugs where way looser on each wheel. Not falling-off loose, but noticably looser than the ones that were snug. Broke out the torque wrench - looked up proper ft. lb. setting in owners manual and got after it.

Oil appeared to have been changed and level was OK.

Was curious about the filter buried below. Pulled the 2 undercovers(one plastic/one metal) and it appeared they changed the filter as the filter housing index tab was in my opinion too far past the associated index mark above. I changed the oil/filter at 5K myself because that's what I do. I had the index marks lined up after the 5K oil/filter change.

I backed it off to where it should be knowing that time in that spot could make loosening later even harder. Idled engine 'til warm - no leaks. I used a special tool used for this - PBT 71113 and was surprised at how much elbow grease I had to use to get the oil filter housing positioned back to where it should be. A person can get carried away with over-torqueing this plastic oil filter housing.

Attached a photo of the oil filter housings position after returning from the dealership. Would appreciate a dealer techs opinion of this. Am I being too anal with regard to the oil filter housings position?

And please....no comments like "you should have taken it back.....". 60+ miles to and from on a highway that's being reworked - countless construction delays, not to mention even more time lost once back at dealership. I got it straightened out PDQ. Will contact the dealerships service mgr. about the lugs once I have a professional opinion about the oil filter housings position.

 

[BobsTrail]

10K Service

I had the same experience with dealer tire rotation and lug nut torque two times. The second time I sent an email to the service manager and sales rep. No response from either one. They did not respond and at least try to sound concerned and I had received a survey from corporate. I let them know about the lug nut torque but no response. I noticed I don't get surrveys from the dealer anymore.

That's one way to manage the survey results and report high numbers.

I hope it's just the tire and oil change guys and that the regular mechanics are OK.

I will be doing my 30K service in a few weeks myself after seeing some of the prices charged for an oil change and a number of inspections. I'm sure I can find the drive shaft and grease fittings on my own.

 

[Cinic]

What's the 'associated index mark' that you mention? Mine has always ended up about where the one in your picture shows.

 

[apollo]

same experience with toyota here locally, not pleased

 

[Lester Lugnut]

What's the 'associated index mark' that you mention? Mine has always ended up about where the one in your picture shows.

Maybe not the best choice of words. Here's a photo that shows how it should be set.

 

[Kennyr44]

You know I hate letting anyone touch my car. I did let them do the free 5 and 10k services but I think I will take over from here and just pay for the oil and filter myself. I have a lift in my garage so not a big deal. The older you get the heavier those tires get though. We were in Florida for the 5k and went to Beaver Toyota to get the rotate. I did mark the tires beforehand to make sure they were done. Also checked the oil and it was clean after the 10k.

 

[Lester Lugnut]

The older you get the heavier those tires get though.

I'll let them do the rotations. Next time I'll slide the torque wrench in the back compartment; then check torque in the parking lot after they turn the vehicle over to me.

Will do a selfie of me turning the wrench if that's needed; then email photo to GM whose office is 100 ft. away.

 

[BobsTrail]

I'll let them do the rotations.

Will do a selfie of me turning the wrench if that's needed; then email photo to GM whose office is 100 ft. away.

Don`t bother telling the GM unless you want to get off the survey list. That worked for me.

 

[1000MPH]

I think you were wise to loosen the filter. I should have done that when they over-torqued mine, then it wouldn't have been so knuckle-breaking to remove.
Don't worry about leaks, its an o-ring seal, not a gasket that requires compression.

 

[meltdown]

At least your guy changed the filter. My guy apparently thinks that replacing the filter is an optional step.

 

[korborh]

You guys expect too much from these so called "techs". Be glad they did not cause major damage (like destroy the engine) and only screwed up a bit. No tech I have seen pays attention to detail like torque specs etc.

I will double check all the work always and fix issues like these myself. My expectations are pretty low from mechanics in general. Very very few do a good overall job.

 

[Cinic]

Maybe not the best choice of words. Here's a photo that shows how it should be set.

I'll admit that I've never used a torque wrench to tighten the housing. But mine has always reached kind of a 'stop' where your original photo shows. The type of feeling where another 50 lb-ft wouldn't move it much if at all.

I've never liked installing that housing. It feels weird pushing that o ring up into the body as you run up the threads. But I've also never had any difficulty removing the housing either. Nor have I had any leaks. So I guess what I'm doing seems to be solid.

My biggest complaint with other's work on this truck is the stripping of the bolts that hold on the under panels the need to be removed to change the oil. Just last weekend I installed helicoil inserts (and new bolts) on the two threads for the little panel at the drain plug. I'll do something about the 4 at the other panel next time I'm under there. Helicoil may be overkill. I think new bolts and chasing the threads might do the trick.

 

[Lester Lugnut]

Don't worry about leaks, its an o-ring seal

Believe it or not, the o-ring seal is what will cause a leak if it's not in the housing groove - 360 degrees. Oil will leak like a sieve if it slips the least bit out of any portion of the o-ring groove. Don't ask me how I know this.

I'll admit that I've never used a torque wrench to tighten the housing.

Torque wrench used only on lug nuts; not oil filter housing!

Oil filter housing "torque" is simply a matter of lining up things like you see in the 2nd photo.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

You guys expect too much from these so called "techs". Be glad they did not cause major damage (like destroy the engine) and only screwed up a bit. No tech I have seen pays attention to detail like torque specs etc.

I will double check all the work always and fix issues like these myself. My expectations are pretty low from mechanics in general. Very very few do a good overall job.

:behindsofa: :smow::moping:

~

That's not an indexing mark really, its just a casting left-over. The Tab is just so it doesn't back off completely by itself.

That being said a of people do over tighten them, I like to just snug them with a ratchet and even then they can be tight to get off with heat cycling.

The tires... man that's always been a compromise for me. When I first got out of school I was all, "Torque Sticks and Torque Wrenches! Torque them wheels on! YEAH!" and was promptly laughed at and teased for months because of it. The reality is that the Flat-Rate system teaches all mechanics to just zap those wheels on, a little extra snug is better than loose because you're not getting paid enough for the oil change & rotation to do everything exactly and make hours (even more true with Toyota Auto-Care program.)

I can't say I'm not guilty of that or that I'm any better than the next guy who says, "I got a feel for it" (I kinda do, we tested it with a torque wrench; I'm usually only about 10-15ft over spec on wheels.) But it's just how the industry is, but when it comes to everything else most good mechanics bust out the torque wrench when it's needed (at least my co-workers and I do.)

Its hard because the reality is that the "higher-up" mechanics don't want to do "Lube-Line" stuff because it actually hurts our hours and pay check directly. But then you have all these typically under-trained, under-motivated, and/or under-skilled Lube Techs servicing customer vehicles and they don't often do the best job. Which sucks, because how is that customer supposed to feel confident in leaving their car with us, when they get their vehicles back with oil spots and loose filters and such. It's just how the industry has evolved and honestly it has always bothered me a bit. Part of it is on the customers (in general) who would rather spend $30 at Jiffy Lube for a 10 minute oil change than $50 for a half-hour/hour oil change done by someone who will actually care and make the effort to look and take care of the vehicle. The other part is the dealerships focusing on quantity over quality despite lauding they don't. Its always "don't rush, take your time, make it quality... but get it done in 10 minutes and get the Multi-Point on my desk in the first 2 minutes so I can nail them for up-sells when they can't run away."

My personal opinion is that oil changes should be at least .5hrs for a tech and give us the opportunity to make money while taking our time for up-sells, evaluating the vehicle, and applying detail touches (i.e. actually wiping down the valve cover/beauty cover, torquing the wheels properly, ect) But
the reality is then the company doesn't make as much money, customers feel like they're getting ripped off because Jiffy Lube down the street does it in 10minutes for half the price (even though that probably means they're just dumping used oil in the engine instead of good oil and not tightening the wheels.) Its all about them Benjamins, even most independent shops get stuck in this sort of industry accepted rut, only the higher end shops that can afford to spend the time and money per customer often have the whole "velvet rope" treatment.

 

[Lester Lugnut]

That's not an indexing mark really, its just a casting left-over. The Tab is just so it doesn't back off completely by itself.

Thanks for the response. The first time I changed oil - 5K - mine was set the way you see in the 2nd photo of this thread - tab lined up with casting left-over. I believe I saw the same thing on page 2 of Antmans oil change how-to.

What I do know is the position it was in(1st photo of 1st post) was way too tight in my opinion. Took an unusual amount of pull with a breaker bar to pull it back. Seems like "any tighter" and things could have gotten weird.

I'm going to use tab-aligned-with-casting-left-over as my bar. Again, that's how it came from the factory.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Not really true. If you want to do it by the book, Toyota FSM calls out a torque of 25 N·m {255 kgf·cm, 18ft·lbf} for the filter housing. BlackWorksInc is spot on.

IMHO, you're worrying about it way too much and should be grateful the clip wasn't broken off or intentionally discarded by the tech (seems to be common practice with this style filter!).

Those damn things go flying all the damn time... :redface:

Thanks for the response. The first time I changed oil - 5K - mine was set the way you see in the 2nd photo of this thread - tab lined up with casting left-over. I believe I saw the same thing on page 2 of Antmans oil change how-to.

What I do know is the position it was in(1st photo of 1st post) was way too tight in my opinion. Took an unusual amount of pull with a breaker bar to pull it back. Seems like "any tighter" and things could have gotten weird.

I'm going to use tab-aligned-with-casting-left-over as my bar. Again, that's how it came from the factory.

Nothing wrong with that, I usually get it seated so its flush against the oil filter pedestal and then turn it 1/4-1/3 of a turn after until its "snug." I almost never have to do more than "bump" the handle of my ratchet to get them off. Some of them are so damn tight I literally need to tap the oil filter with a 1/2" impact to loosen it or use 1/2" breaker bar with a cheater on it!

 

[Lester Lugnut]

Not really true. If you want to do it by the book, Toyota FSM calls out a torque of 25 N·m {255 kgf·cm, 18ft·lbf} for the filter housing. BlackWorksInc is spot on.

Thanks for the torque spec. I'll see where things land when I change the filter at 15K using 18 Ft. Lbs.

 

[1engineer]

Thanks for the torque spec. I'll see where things land when I change the filter at 15K using 18 Ft. Lbs.

Lester my friend I hate to tell you this but you can't use a fixed point to index a single part threaded connection, especially one with dissimilar materials. Over time, threads will change due to fatigue, material type, temperature and just plain stretch. Also the manufacturing process would dictate where the correct point was and it would be different for every vehicle. If you used a jam nut for the connection then yes, it could be done.

Now, you might pick a point and it will be the same for years. You might pick a point and it will be different the next time you change the oil.

Same goes for counting threads in order to make the correct adjustment for something. It will get you in the right town but not even close to the right house.

 

[Lester Lugnut]

you can't use a fixed point to index a single part threaded connection, especially one with dissimilar materials.

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] - I thank you for your input.

 

[Lester Lugnut]

OK - in review:

5K - 25K tire rotation - ToyotaCare:

Check to ensure that there is at least uniformity in the lug tension. Mine were all over the place. I will continue to "torque" check.

5th Gen Oil Filter Housing:

I(and others) apparently misunderstood the relationship of the "index" tab on the plastic housing and the over-casting. However, I will continue to use it as a guide as the 2 were in align at 1st 5K oil change and follow the torque spec provided above for the plastic housing. [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]s comments about material disparity taken into consideration.

Thanks to all who participated here.