Defrost problem.

[Fred Ritchie]

Sorry to re-visit the same issue but same problem exists, despite having tried all the advice, including leaving the AC on all year. All I got was cold! No help with defrost at all. Since problem prevents driving with def/floor split and the fact that no matter what air direction switch you choose, air ALWAYS comes from side vents on dash. I, again, can't think of any place to look but the doors (servos can be seen working). It would be nice to be able to be warm and be able to see but right now I have to choose, actually the fog decides.
Any new advice?
Thanks.

 

[SSt4r]

I can't help on your main issue but air will ALWAYS come from both outside side vents unless you close them locally.

 

[Fred Ritchie]

When this problem first showed itself I was told on the Forum, in fairly definite terms, that when directed to the def/floor split "NO AIR SHOULD COME FROM THE SIDE VENTS" when set for def/floor. I have tried closing the vents directly and air still escapes, cold and at an uncomfortable force. This happens even when I put on full defrost. And, as instructed previously, I tried leaving the AC on as this was supposed to keep moisture from windshield. Absolutely no benefit, completely fogged until setting to full defrost. Its also worthy to note that even with heavy rain our temp. was in the 60's but I had to set def. temp to 77 degrees and fan speed to high to get effective defrosting.

Is there really any reason why this is not a problem then please, if anyone can, give me something else to look for. This is wrong and all insisted remedies have, so far, had no benefit. If it is not directional doors not operating properly, what else could it be?

 

[Robs08Runner]

I believe that you have more than one door that's not working properly. If you're bringing in cold air most of the time, the recirculation door is probably dead.

 

[fdbyrne]

When this problem first showed itself I was told on the Forum, in fairly definite terms, that when directed to the def/floor split "NO AIR SHOULD COME FROM THE SIDE VENTS" when set for def/floor. I have tried closing the vents directly and air still escapes, cold and at an uncomfortable force. This happens even when I put on full defrost. And, as instructed previously, I tried leaving the AC on as this was supposed to keep moisture from windshield. Absolutely no benefit, completely fogged until setting to full defrost. Its also worthy to note that even with heavy rain our temp. was in the 60's but I had to set def. temp to 77 degrees and fan speed to high to get effective defrosting.

Is there really any reason why this is not a problem then please, if anyone can, give me something else to look for. This is wrong and all insisted remedies have, so far, had no benefit. If it is not directional doors not operating properly, what else could it be?

Aren't the side vents intended to defrost the driver and passenger windows? I think that every vehicle I've ever owned pushed air out the side vents when the vent selection was set to defrost.

 

[nevada]

Sorry to re-visit the same issue but same problem exists, despite having tried all the advice, including leaving the AC on all year. All I got was cold! No help with defrost at all. Since problem prevents driving with def/floor split and the fact that no matter what air direction switch you choose, air ALWAYS comes from side vents on dash. I, again, can't think of any place to look but the doors (servos can be seen working). It would be nice to be able to be warm and be able to see but right now I have to choose, actually the fog decides.
Any new advice?
Thanks.

what is the exact problem you are having? blowing cold air?

I believe that you have more than one door that's not working properly. If you're bringing in cold air most of the time, the recirculation door is probably dead.

this.
though, I expect its the hot/cold blend door.

 

[Fred Ritchie]

Original problem is fogging windshield and must use full def. to clear, def./floor split will not clear windshield.

I agree air should always come from side "stationary" vents angled toward window regardless of direction selection. Here, air continues through the adjustable side vents in the face of the dash with no real change in force when moved to the def./floor split setting. When I put to def/floor split, the vents in the center of the dash do shut off, no air at all.

Temp. of air seems correct according to my setting, it just doesn't go where its told in this situation. As I previously said, even closing the vent doors can't "stop" air enough from side vents to be comfortable, you just have to direct them away as far as you can.

I have always assumed that it was a blend door problem. Can anyone comment on complexity/cost of this fix? What is actually required, repair of....?, replacement of.....?

 

[Fred Ritchie]

Just to close this out I took truck to dealer for opinion. Service mgr. agrees that based on particulars involved it does sound like directional door problems which would run between 2 & 3K $, 3 servos installed, virtually all labor. Took truck to my regular mech. and had him estimate job, $1,500.00 MAX for all 3 servos installed. Still not cheap but being comfortable and maintaining what's left of my sanity are more important. Beautiful vehicle and I would like it to work correctly in all regards if possible. Just call me obstinate.

Thanks for all input. Happy New Year!

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I honestly am still confused on what the issue is...

Am I understanding you right?

-When in Defrost or Defrost/Floor the Driver's & Passenger's Side outer vents blow air? (Normal Function)

-When manually closing the vents with the dial at each vent air still blows OUT of the main vent? (That means both vent assemblies are failing to close; they're simple plastic doors moved by a dial, nothing to do with servos; on a side note in Defrost the small angled vents above the vent will still blow air; this is normal)

-Airflow/volume should be controlled by the blower motor speed, not vent setting; I don't quite understand what you are saying that you expect it to change when you switch it to a different vent position?

Also you failed to mention what Year and Trim you have; is this an SR5/Sport or Limited with Dual Climate Control?

 

[Fred Ritchie]

Stated as simply as I can, the problem is that in order to defrost windshield I must put on full defrost. If I switch airflow to split between floor and defrost the windshield will not clear nor stay clear.
As to the vents. Of course the stationary vents in the corners of the dash (directed toward side windows) continue a gentle air flow regardless of directional settings.
However, when I select the floor/defrost split airflow direction, the airflow coming from the adjustable vents in the sides of the dash does not decrease and it should, thereby re-directing all airflow only to the defrost and floor vents as the icon on the directional control indicates. It is obvious that something is allowing airflow to continue thru side vents which prevents sufficient defrost air.
Don't know what plastic doors you're referring to, this first I've heard them mentioned.
Local Toyota dealership confirms problem is in the airflow system which requires dash removal, which is not cheap. If you know of easy "plastic door fix" please share the specifics, a lot of folks would like to know. Does door repair require dash removal?

 

[ThorInc]

fresh air or recirc? Both?

edit: disregard, that's why they are called stealerships....

 

[Fred Ritchie]

Funny, the dealership wants between 2 - 3K to replace three servos (assuming that is in fact the problem) mostly due to labor of removing the dash. Went from dealer to my mechanic and asked for quote, Normally they allow 8 hrs labor for dash removal job and servos are about 150.00 - 175.00/ea. (dealers says there are 3, I've heard of 2 and seen 1 behind glovebox (working). Calculating worst case scenario, allowing 12 hrs labor + parts. Maximum estimate from my man, $1,500.00 installed.
If there are simple plastic doors to be replaced, as BlackWorksInc. posted, does this require dash removal? Really seems strange that neither the dealer, my mechanic nor my manual indicates the replacement of such doors. I'm sure some sort of directional apparatus exists to direct airflow, this is obvious, but you refer to something (replaceable plastic doors) that no one else seems to be aware of. Please share what you know. Vehicle is '04 SR-5, not Sport, not Limited, V-8, auto, rear wheel drive.

 

[Ralph Blake]

I believe that you have more than one door that's not working properly. If you're bringing in cold air most of the time, the recirculation door is probably dead.

I agree it has to be tied to the recirculation door.

 

[Ralph Blake]

Funny, the dealership wants between 2 - 3K to replace three servos (assuming that is in fact the problem) mostly due to labor of removing the dash. Went from dealer to my mechanic and asked for quote, Normally they allow 8 hrs labor for dash removal job and servos are about 150.00 - 175.00/ea. (dealers says there are 3, I've heard of 2 and seen 1 behind glovebox (working). Calculating worst case scenario, allowing 12 hrs labor + parts. Maximum estimate from my man, $1,500.00 installed.
If there are simple plastic doors to be replaced, as BlackWorksInc. posted, does this require dash removal? Really seems strange that neither the dealer, my mechanic nor my manual indicates the replacement of such doors. I'm sure some sort of directional apparatus exists to direct airflow, this is obvious, but you refer to something (replaceable plastic doors) that no one else seems to be aware of. Please share what you know. Vehicle is '04 SR-5, not Sport, not Limited, V-8, auto, rear wheel drive.

This is the main reason many people just dump a lot of new autos and trucks,when faced with such high costs of getting them repaired.
I have read and heard many times of some small problems with new autos and trucks, with people being quoted repair prices in the thousands to fix them. Many times it a electronic problem but it can be a simple driveline problem and still end up costing thousands to get fixed.
And many time even after paying the high costs ,it's still really not fixed and people are just stuck with it.

For example just look at the Toyota rear hatch auto locking system, as a small costly dealer repair item.

 

[Fred Ritchie]

I agree, that's a big reason why I so often find myself longing for my old '69 1/2 ton Chevy pick-up. If there was a computer in that vehicle, it was on the seat next to me either coming home from the store or going to the repair man. Truck just kept running like a thief in the night.
After 3 BMW's, 1 Volvo (big mistake) and a variety of other vehicles over the last 40 years I am well aware of the cost of repair and maintenance. It's just the cost of doing business. This is different only that I have a lot of helpful input from forum members along with a bit of personal opinion insisted to be the absolute answer.
It's obvious the bigger part of my problem is the labor cost which I will minimize if possible without giving up good work, as I assume most people would try to do.
Thanks again for all the input. I will get problem fixed. Or maybe I'll just move to the tropics where foggy windshields aren't such a common problem.
Happy Runnin'!

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=124665]Fred Ritchie[/MENTION]

You're describing proper operation of the system as far as I can tell...

These are pages from the Owner's Manual (Pages 231 & 234 under Section 1-9 of "Operations of Instruments & Controls")



You can clearly see that in both Defrost & Defrost + Floor airflow will come out of both the top "Defrost" mini vent and the main vents on both ends (you can even see that the arrows vary in size to indicate a difference in airflow between the two settings; though the side vents show little decrease in flow). All Defrost + Lower does is provide airflow to the lower vents by opening the door to those sections, it does not close off anything for the already in use defroster section.



This is what I am talking about by plastic doors. Each vent has a small plastic door that you rotate the dial to "Turn it Off", it is not an airtight seal (it's actually just a plastic door with some foam at the end sometimes) and you will still get bleed through of air. What it does is mostly block the path of the air so it takes a less restrictive route. You will still feel some air coming out of the vent and the top mini defroster vent when in Defrost or Defrost + Floor because these air tubes are directly tied to the upper vent section of the HVAC system (by upper vent section I am talking about Defroster Functions, as you can see the central vents are routed differently through a central section, while the side vents have their own passages unaffected by the Air Mode Actuator and door).



I verified the above statement with my '04 Sport Edition (the HVAC system is the same in the SR5 and Sport, Limited has Dual Climate Control). Yes you're going to get reduced airflow in Defroster + Floor and I have noticed sometimes it's better to use Air Conditioned Air or Hot Air to defrost the windows in cold weather; usually once I have the window cleared up I can switch to Defrost + Floor and maintain it, sometimes I can't. I ran into this issue in Tahoe recently when I needed to blast Defroster + Floor to dry out my wool socks and boots on the way home from playing in the snow.

Based on what you are describing, I am not seeing or experiencing an issue in my personal vehicle; nor do I see an issue with the way the system functions as you describe because it is functioning as it is designed and constructed.

 

[Fred Ritchie]

I have closed these doors with no improvement in def/floor split. I've tried every combination of fan speed, AC on & off, close vents using wheels and anything I could think of or may have been recommended here. When I select def/floor split, the center dash vents completely prevent airflow, without my touching the wheeled doors. If the side vents would allow this level of prevention then there would, I suspect, be enough air re-directed to the windshield to maintain defrost, while providing air to the floor as well, exactly as the icons on the control indicate.
I agree it's a "door" problem but I suspect these doors/flappers are within the interior of some component of the duct system. If, while dash is down, my mechanic confirms all servos are working then it can only be a directional device of some sort. Before that I will determine what components might be responsible and decide how to proceed. I sent question to Toyota USA re:location of any "directional devices" within system (thanks for the diagram) that may be replaceable as small component or a larger unit containing it (or more). Seems the Heater to Register Duct Center unit is logical place to start if the name is any indicator. By the time Toyota comes back it could be getting warm around here anyway but it's cold now and getting colder.
Do you know if same servo that serves middle dash vents, controls the side, "adjustable with wheel", vents as well or is there a separate servo?
How many servos are within the system total, 2 or 3?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I have closed these doors with no improvement in def/floor split. I've tried every combination of fan speed, AC on & off, close vents using wheels and anything I could think of or may have been recommended here. When I select def/floor split, the center dash vents completely prevent airflow, without my touching the wheeled doors. If the side vents would allow this level of prevention then there would, I suspect, be enough air re-directed to the windshield to maintain defrost, while providing air to the floor as well, exactly as the icons on the control indicate.
I agree it's a "door" problem but I suspect these doors/flappers are within the interior of some component of the duct system. If, while dash is down, my mechanic confirms all servos are working then it can only be a directional device of some sort. Before that I will determine what components might be responsible and decide how to proceed. I sent question to Toyota USA re:location of any "directional devices" within system (thanks for the diagram) that may be replaceable as small component or a larger unit containing it (or more). Seems the Heater to Register Duct Center unit is logical place to start if the name is any indicator. By the time Toyota comes back it could be getting warm around here anyway but it's cold now and getting colder.
Do you know if same servo that serves middle dash vents, controls the side, "adjustable with wheel", vents as well or is there a separate servo?
How many servos are within the system total, 2 or 3?

I don't think you're understanding what I am saying here...

Look at the page I posted above in regards to the vent settings operation. In ALL settings the Outer Vents (not the little Defroster ones on top, the actual vent) operate, in fact straight "Floor" position and "Defroster + Floor" show the exact same airflow. There is no air door or servo that blocks off the outer vents, they are always blowing air unless you physically close the vents (I'll touch on that below).



-Red goes to the Center Vents next to the radio

-Green is the Defroster that routes to the windshield and the small vents on top of the Outer Vents on the Driver's and Passenger's side.

-Blue is the Outer Vents on the Driver's and Passenger's side.

There is no way for those vents to be shut-off/blocked off unless you rotate the dial at the vents themselves, this is how the system was designed to operate. (Why I have no idea, I would have figured at least in Floor mode that you'd turn them off... but I didn't build the vehicle.)

~

As for closing the vents not making a difference, that's actually a problem; but not in the way that you think. I was curious about why I still felt so much bleed through even when I closed the vent off. Well I don't know why it never clicked in my head before, but for years I'd get a little bit of dirty, crumbly looking foam every now and then.

That's what they used to edge the vent block off. It's this really porous, fragile foam that after a decade has basically disintegrated leaving a good 2~3mm gap around the block-off. Normally I am always running the Air Conditioning in my vehicle so I never close the vents, but I decided to experiment a bit.

I bought a sheet of arts & crafts foam from Michael's and cut the shape I needed to fit each block-off in all my vents snugly and securely. Now when I close a vent it's shut off for good.! :frog:

 

[enumify]

Try removing/replacing your cabin air filterfilter behind the glove box. If it gets dirty enough it can hold moisture and make defrost ineffective. There is a thread on here somewhere where someone had a defrost problem due to a cheap walmart cabin air filter.

 

[Fred Ritchie]

BlackWorksInc:
Your explanations couldn't be more clear and regarding engineering design, I further agree that much makes little sense here. I regard this vehicle to be over-engineered to a degree equalled only by the late Saabs and too many Volvos. Technology is great, when it works right.
I would have just liked to be able to keep the fog down and my feet warm without having to blast air, set around 80 degrees, in my face until my sinus cavity achieves Sahara dryness while my feet remain annoyingly chilled.
It is what it is.

enumify:
Planning to change cabin air filter anyway, never linked it as possible cause, it's just due.

Thanks for the patient input from all.