Drain & Fill at the dealer with GENUINE TOYOTA ATF WS Fluid NOT MOC SYNTHETIC ATF PLS

[F4injected]

Drain & Fill at the dealer with GENUINE TOYOTA ATF WS Fluid NOT MOC SYNTHETIC ATF PLS

So I saw a coupon at my local Toyota dealer in Austin, TX for a $74.95 ATF drain and fill. The coupon said that it was a little extra for the WS fluid needed for my car so I decided to swing by and see exactly how much more.

Long story short, the service department said it would be around $125 for the drain and fill with the WS fluid. Because I don't have access to a level ground around my hilly area, and due to the tight fit under the front end, I just decided to do it at the dealer.

I requested to observe the mechanic perform the drain and fill and after a little nudging they obliged. When the car was lifted, I could see that the tranny was not touched. The car was purchased used at 129k so I'm guessing the previous owner didn't do the 100k maintenance. The mechanic proceed to drain the ATF and it was friggin dirty. Granted it wasn't too well-lit under the car but it was definitely dark brownish liquid.

Now it gets interesting... the mechanic runs out and grabs a gallon bottle of MOC Synthetic This stuff here

I gaze at the bottle and don't think much of it at first but get a weird feeling in my gut. I read the bottle and it says, meets or exceeds oem fluids in Toyota/Lexus, blah blah... I was concerned but I let the mechanic finish his job.

When he was done, I walked back to the service guy and after he tried to sell me on more maintenance items, I asked him why they put MOC fluid rather than Toyota Genuine ATF WS. That's when he said, "well, it's the same thing." Appalled, I paused and said," so you're telling me that GENUINE TOYOTA ATF WS equals MOC ATF?. So if I go to the parts counter and purchase toyota atf, they will give me Moc atf?" He hesitated and said that just like Toyota uses Mobil oil, Moc Oil is the same as Toyota oil in a different package. After arguing a bit, we decided to meet the service manager. When the question was brought up (at this point I was a little heated and other customers were looking at us, which I'm sure cause the managers to scurry about) the manager said, oh, let me check in the back and see if we have some Toyota Genuine WS ATF...

Yea, are you freaking kidding me... anyway he came back and said, yea we have some. I was so furious but tried my best to calmly ask the service guy to redo the drain and fill with the correct fluid.

WHEW anyway I did observe that the correct WS fluid was placed in my vehicle in the 2nd drain and fill but unsurprisingly the mechanic did a few things WRONG BOTH TIMES.

1. He did not use a scantool to check the temp
2. He didn't even loosen the overflow plug in either of the two drain and fills.
3. He didn't torque the bolts (LOL that's the ocd part in me.)

I didn't say anything to further piss off the mechanic, who could easily break things on my car.. but I definitely noticed these things; the first two being the most important.

I believe he pumped about 4.5 quarts in the transmission... and I have no idea how much was drained out.

How bad would it be to have the tranny overfilled?
What ideas do you have for me to find somewhere level and loosen the overfill to let the excess fluid out?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

That stuff is garbage;

"Meets or exceeds the performance requirement of Ford, GM, Allison C4,Range Rover, Jaguar, VW Transmission Oil Part# G052 162 A2, Audi, Toyota, Lexus, Volvo, Nissan, Kia Hyundai, Honda, BMW and Mercedes Benz ATF"

I guarantee you it doesn't even meet ANY of those requirements properly, this is one of those "Universal fluids" that consumers should stay away from, PERIOD. Transmission fluid is designed specifically for transmissions and is spec'd by manufacturer, there is no "universal" flavor for them. This is not the days of Dexron III & Type IV ATF, the fluids are highly specialized and are not cross compatible, this is like "universal coolant" a borderline gimmick made to sell product to penny pinching, uninformed customers. WS is an extremely thin transmission fluid than most makes and models and thus is very different than other brands, think as thin as the mineral based CVT fluid used in Nissans. Speaking of which, unless they're talking older Nissan ATF, that stuff WILL NOT work for Nissan's CVTs (as I said early its a mineral based fluid IIRC), the CVT stuff is significantly different than any ATF used, another hint that stuff is garbage.

The dealer should be reported to BBB and Toyota HQ that they are intentionally voiding vehicle warranties by using this fluid in Toyota WS transmissions. Why that dealership is even using that fluid is beyond me, we use a lot of MOC products and they're good stuff; but WS transmissions take WS fluid (as far as I know Toyota has not approved of any other fluid to be used in their vehicles equipped with WS fluid other than the factory stuff.) There is no other "official" (i.e. Toyota approved and accepted) WS fluid alternative, Amsoil makes a comparable product, but they didn't want to pay licensing fees to Toyota so it isn't "Toyota Approved" and will void your warranty if used.

The WS transmissions are sensitive to being over and underfilled, so much to the point there is a special service tool (really useless thing honestly) because many technicians as you pointed out in your post have failed to properly set the fluid level in the vehicle. The pan when drained usually empties a little over 3 quarts.

Your transmission is incorrectly filled and contaminated with incorrect fluid and should be properly flushed with about 8qts of fluid (to provide a complete flush our dealership found 8qts is roughly a good number to start with for a proper flush vs. drain and fill.) I would go back to the service manager and explain this to them, unless the Service Manager can provide you with Toyota Documentation providing an APPROVED WS alternative fluid usage list, they are using the wrong stuff and are at fault. I would still recommend you report them for poor service practices and business ethics regardless of the outcome. If the dealer continues to give you the run around take it to another dealer or shop that will do the job properly and then take legal action if you wish compensation for the parts and labor.

Wish you the best of luck.

For further reading if you so like;
http://www.postzambia.com/post-read_article.php?articleId=11660

 

[WXman]

Wait a second.. they drained your pan, filled it back up, and charged you $125?

I'm in the wrong line of work.

And for the record, I put 3.5 quarts in mine when warm and when I pulled the check plug with the engine running fluid gushed out. So my guess is that with 4.5 quarts you are severely overfilled.

 

[F4injected]

That stuff is garbage;

"Meets or exceeds the performance requirement of Ford, GM, Allison C4,Range Rover, Jaguar, VW Transmission Oil Part# G052 162 A2, Audi, Toyota, Lexus, Volvo, Nissan, Kia Hyundai, Honda, BMW and Mercedes Benz ATF"

I guarantee you it doesn't even meet ANY of those requirements properly, this is one of those "Universal fluids" that consumers should stay away from, PERIOD. Transmission fluid is designed specifically for transmissions and is spec'd by manufacturer, there is no "universal" flavor for them. This is not the days of Dexron III & Type IV ATF, the fluids are highly specialized and are not cross compatible, this is like "universal coolant" a borderline gimmick made to sell product to penny pinching, uninformed customers. WS is an extremely thin transmission fluid than most makes and models and thus is very different than other brands, think as thin as the mineral based CVT fluid used in Nissans. Speaking of which, unless they're talking older Nissan ATF, that stuff WILL NOT work for Nissan's CVTs (as I said early its a mineral based fluid IIRC), the CVT stuff is significantly different than any ATF used, another hint that stuff is garbage.

The dealer should be reported to BBB and Toyota HQ that they are intentionally voiding vehicle warranties by using this fluid in Toyota WS transmissions. Why that dealership is even using that fluid is beyond me, we use a lot of MOC products and they're good stuff; but WS transmissions take WS fluid (as far as I know Toyota has not approved of any other fluid to be used in their vehicles equipped with WS fluid other than the factory stuff.) There is no other "official" (i.e. Toyota approved and accepted) WS fluid alternative, Amsoil makes a comparable product, but they didn't want to pay licensing fees to Toyota so it isn't "Toyota Approved" and will void your warranty if used.

The WS transmissions are sensitive to being over and underfilled, so much to the point there is a special service tool (really useless thing honestly) because many technicians as you pointed out in your post have failed to properly set the fluid level in the vehicle. The pan when drained usually empties a little over 3 quarts.

Your transmission is incorrectly filled and contaminated with incorrect fluid and should be properly flushed with about 8qts of fluid (to provide a complete flush our dealership found 8qts is roughly a good number to start with for a proper flush vs. drain and fill.) I would go back to the service manager and explain this to them, unless the Service Manager can provide you with Toyota Documentation providing an APPROVED WS alternative fluid usage list, they are using the wrong stuff and are at fault. I would still recommend you report them for poor service practices and business ethics regardless of the outcome. If the dealer continues to give you the run around take it to another dealer or shop that will do the job properly and then take legal action if you wish compensation for the parts and labor.

Wish you the best of luck.

For further reading if you so like;
The Post Newspapers Zambia - Latest News, Politics, Business, Sports, Photos, Videos » Columns » How automatic transmission oil can damage your automatic gearbox

Thanks for the information!!! I really don't want them to touch my car again so I will either do it myself and/or find a good mechanic shop to do it.

I just might end up reporting them because who knows how many people have been screwed over by this.

Wait a second.. they drained your pan, filled it back up, and charged you $125?

I'm in the wrong line of work.

And for the record, I put 3.5 quarts in mine when warm and when I pulled the check plug with the engine running fluid gushed out. So my guess is that with 4.5 quarts you are severely overfilled.

LOL Yes... I knew it was better to do it myself and save $75 but like I said, I don't have easy access to a level surface. I already did my serpentine belt, plugs and differential myself so I figured doing this one service at the dealer wouldn't cost me that much. LITTLE DID I KNOW!

I did find a level-ish parking garage last night and loosened the overflow plug. Man, tranny fluid gushed out. After about 20seconds I stopped the flow by screwing the plug back in.

Tonight, when I have more time, I'm going to try to get the truck to the proper temp via the A/T temp light and will try to drain the fluid to the proper level.

My main question is:
If the truck is not on jack stands, is the truck level?

It seems like the front end is slightly lower...

 

[BOSMECH]

I guess I will do mine my self since they can not be trusted.

 

[F4injected]

I guess I will do mine my self since they can not be trusted.

Yes, I suggest that you do it yourself or take it to a reputable mechanic who will follow the proper procedures.

I filed a complaint with the BBB and Toyota Corporate so we will see what they say.

 

[Ventil8]

Did you go to Charles Maund Toyota? They quoted me $275 for front/rear differential change...I went to Round Rock Toyota and they did it for $125. Now I'm wondering what kind of fluid they used for that discounted price.

 

[F4injected]

Did you go to Charles Maund Toyota? They quoted me $275 for front/rear differential change...I went to Round Rock Toyota and they did it for $125. Now I'm wondering what kind of fluid they used for that discounted price.

Yes it was CHARLES MAUND TOYOTA.

They probably used some generic brand like MOC synthetic. Not sure if you tow, but you may want to change it out...

 

[Ventil8]

Yes it was CHARLES MAUND TOYOTA.

They probably used some generic brand like MOC synthetic. Not sure if you tow, but you may want to change it out...

Have never towed in the 8years I've owned my 4Runner, I'm the original owner. I did have my spark plugs done at Charles Maund. They said they would install the long lasting iridium sparks, but the RR Toyota guys said they are the regular 30,000 mile spark plugs. Those punks!

 

[jimithing]

My main question is:
If the truck is not on jack stands, is the truck level?

It seems like the front end is slightly lower...

Yes the front end is a little lower on even ground.

 

[JB.]

My main question is:
If the truck is not on jack stands, is the truck level?

It seems like the front end is slightly lower...

I think you're trying to be too precise. The amount of fluid difference represented by the minimum and maximum temperature check levels is about 6oz. That's more fluid than would be represented by slight deviations from perfectly level. If you're that concerned with it, then put a carpenter's level on the trans pan. I think you'll find the bubble reads within the hash marks with the truck sitting on apparently level ground.

I did find a level-ish parking garage last night and loosened the overflow plug. Man, tranny fluid gushed out. After about 20seconds I stopped the flow by screwing the plug back in.

The details matter as to what effect this had. Was the truck running in park? How warm was the truck? If the trans fluid was higher than 115 degrees, you may have drained too much.

Tonight, when I have more time, I'm going to try to get the truck to the proper temp via the A/T temp light and will try to drain the fluid to the proper level.

If you have any problems getting into check mode, see the thread below.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-g...r-ways-check-ws-transmission-fluid-level.html

 

[F4injected]

I think you're trying to be too precise. The amount of fluid difference represented by the minimum and maximum temperature check levels is about 6oz. That's more fluid than would be represented by slight deviations from perfectly level. If you're that concerned with it, then put a carpenter's level on the trans pan. I think you'll find the bubble reads within the hash marks with the truck sitting on apparently level ground.

The details matter as to what effect this had. Was the truck running in park? How warm was the truck? If the trans fluid was higher than 115 degrees, you may have drained too much.

When draining the fluid, it was very slightly warm to the touch so I definitely don't think it was higher than 115 degrees.

Yes, I didn't want to drain too much so I stopped the flow and replace the overflow plug.

If you have any problems getting into check mode, see the thread below.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-g...r-ways-check-ws-transmission-fluid-level.html

Thanks! I was able to get it into temp check mode but I think because there was so much tranny fluid, it wasn't reading properly.


UPDATE:

The dealer actually agreed to do a full flush of the old tranny fluid and fill it with the Toyota ATF Fluid.

I know that a flush may not be good for the engine, but we'll see how the mechanic does the flush.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

This has been covered a lot in the forums, basically when people talk about "damage caused by ATF flushes" its usually by a machine driven flush (the solovent ones are the worst in this case) on very high mileage, older transmissions. WS Fluid is a long life fluid and does pretty well up to 100k under average conditions, a "flush" (in this case we are talking about the multiple drain & fill method approved by Toyota and used by many members) won't harm your transmissions under most circumstances so don't worry about it. Its not like the truck has 200k+ and you've never even looked at the fluid.

Good job on reporting them, I hope that Toyota cracks down on them; as a dealership technican I am sickened by the crap I deal with (our sales dept. is just crooked and sleazy and it shows in our comebacks on used cars, I am insulted and regularly blamed because my name goes on the inspection sheets for repairs refused and "done on the cheap" because sales was too stupid to fix it right the first time and do it properly. ) and to hear about how blatantly wrong and vile some dealerships treat forum members and customers just makes my blood boil.

 

[jminz]

When a trans is flushed, does the machine used to do the flushing dictate how much fluid to add or is there settings on the flush machine that are programmed for your vehicle.

Curious because I had mine done today. Can you be confident with a flush that you have the right amount of fluid?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

When a trans is flushed, does the machine used to do the flushing dictate how much fluid to add or is there settings on the flush machine that are programmed for your vehicle.

Curious because I had mine done today. Can you be confident with a flush that you have the right amount of fluid?

Toyota and the MOC representative that showed us how to use our trans flushing machine (sat collecting dust for a long while) state NOT to use a machine on WS transmissions.

Most transmission machines have two reservoirs, one is waste, the other is new fluid. You fill the New Fluid tank to what ever amount you want to flush into the car and make sure the same amount of waste oil comes out. Its not super accurate as you're not able to properly take into account the fluid in the adapter lines, the machine passages... normally its not a big deal as you just top off what you need via the dipstick when you check it. This is obviously not doable with sealed transmissions and so you'd have to still do the fluid level check procedure to be accurate (this is assuming the technician did use a machine on your WS transmission); this is probably the main reason Toyota does not want a fluid exchange/flush machine used on the WS transmissions as they have had a LOT of issues with technicians and customers not setting their transmission fluid levels properly. The WS transmissions are rather finicky about fluid level; you only vary something like 10-ish ounces in the temperature range given via the FSM.

 

[LTDSC]

I guess I will do mine my self since they can not be trusted.

I assure you not all dealers are like this, the dealer i worked at only had Toyota fluids besides boxes of Mobil 1 synthetic. Other than that ONLY Toyota fluid ever went out for things like coolant, trans fluids.

 

[F4injected]

This has been covered a lot in the forums, basically when people talk about "damage caused by ATF flushes" its usually by a machine driven flush (the solovent ones are the worst in this case) on very high mileage, older transmissions. WS Fluid is a long life fluid and does pretty well up to 100k under average conditions, a "flush" (in this case we are talking about the multiple drain & fill method approved by Toyota and used by many members) won't harm your transmissions under most circumstances so don't worry about it. Its not like the truck has 200k+ and you've never even looked at the fluid.

Good job on reporting them, I hope that Toyota cracks down on them; as a dealership technican I am sickened by the crap I deal with (our sales dept. is just crooked and sleazy and it shows in our comebacks on used cars, I am insulted and regularly blamed because my name goes on the inspection sheets for repairs refused and "done on the cheap" because sales was too stupid to fix it right the first time and do it properly. ) and to hear about how blatantly wrong and vile some dealerships treat forum members and customers just makes my blood boil.

You think it will be okay my vehicle even though the tranny oil looked like it had never been touched for 129,000 miles?

As far as the flush goes, I'll be sure to make the mechanic check the overflow plug to ensure the correct amount of fluid goes into the vehicle.

Thanks, I just hope that they do it properly this time; I will definitely be watching.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Should be okay.

 

[emelianenkov]

If I drain into a clear container while my fluid is cold, and replace exactly how much I drained, would that be ok?

I don't have an IR thermometer, I don't wanna mess with idling and stuff. I saw a how to where a guy did that on a 2004 V8. It should be ok, right?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

If I drain into a clear container while my fluid is cold, and replace exactly how much I drained, would that be ok?

I don't have an IR thermometer, I don't wanna mess with idling and stuff. I saw a how to where a guy did that on a 2004 V8. It should be ok, right?

To be honest, your logic is sound, but I don't know for sure...