Driveline shudder during braking

[ultimatt]

have a severe shudder under braking at speeds above 30 mph. No pulsation in brake pedal whatsoever.

From what I see in the forum looks like it might be a u-joint? If so, how would I determine which U-joint is bad? I have a 4WD so I have quite a few that could be bad.

Any other thoughts on what the problem could be if not u-joints?

Thanks.

 

[Ckooyers]

Front rotors warp pretty bad on these a lot of people upgrade to bigger rotor and pads

 

[ultimatt]

Front rotors warp pretty bad on these a lot of people upgrade to bigger rotor and pads

Did the Tundra brake upgrade about a year ago. With the current problem there is zero brake pedal pulsation.

 

[mtbtim]

I agree that it's probably an issue with your rotors. I bought a 2000 4runner last year and I would get some shudder when braking a faster speeds. Instead of trying to turn the rotors, I just decided to buy some premium rotors and pads at a Napa Auto Parts store. The braking shudder went away.

I was considering doing the Tundra upgrade but I decided against it when I learned the larger calipers would rub on the stock alloy wheels I had. I read some would do some grinding on the inside of the rims to make more room for the calipers or just buy new rims to accommodate the larger calipers. I didn't want to drop money on new rims and grinding the inside of the rims wasn't something I wanted to do either so I just stayed with the stock brakes. I often load my truck down with a lot of gear and my stopping power seems pretty good. If I ever decide to upgrade my wheels, I'll probably do the Tundra swap because some extra braking power could be the difference between avoiding an accident or being in an accident.

 

[gamefreakgc]

have a severe shudder under braking at speeds above 30 mph. No pulsation in brake pedal whatsoever.

From what I see in the forum looks like it might be a u-joint? If so, how would I determine which U-joint is bad? I have a 4WD so I have quite a few that could be bad.

Any other thoughts on what the problem could be if not u-joints?

Thanks.

You wouldn't necessarily feel it in the brake pedal. The pedal and master cylinder itself is connected to the brakes via flexible fluid lines so you'd never feel it through the pedal. Where you would feel it is in the steering since it makes the wheels wobble.

When you press on the brakes, do you get a strong shake in the steering wheel and if bad enough, front end wobble? If yes it it most definitely the rotors. They need to be turned since they have warped. The upside is that it's cheap to do and with the thicker Tundra rotors you can do it a whole lot before it's too thin to use.

 

[a216vcti]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVC76dSBNnY is a pretty good video on how to diagnose the driveshafts. It helps me recently. All you have to do is jack up one wheel a little so that it rotates, then get under the vehicle and push on the ends of the drive shaft to see if you get any wiggle. A good u-joint would not move at all.

I too think it's your rotors, however, it could be your driveshaft as well. The driveshaft will take about 5 minutes to check. So do that first.

 

[animator]

Drive shaft vibration is typically very quick vibrations, and usually occurs at a certain speed (which relates to the driveshaft rpm) regardless of brake position.

 

[ultimatt]

looks like I might be suffering from brake judder -

New brake pads need a smooth, clean surface to lay down an even transfer film. Residue from the previous pad compound on the surface or an uneven transfer film from overheating the new pads will cause the pads to grip-slip-grip-slip as they pass over the rotor surface under pressure. The resulting vibrations and noise telegraph and amplify as they pass through the suspension and steering components of the vehicle. This vibration and noise is known as brake judder or brake shimmy. This is often misdiagnosed as a warped rotor. If caught early enough, this can be fixed by cleaning the rotor surfaces with 200 grit garnet paper followed by spray brake cleaner to remove any compound buildup on the rotors. Then the pads should be re-bedded following the manufacturer’s instructions. Normally this will eliminate the judder and noise issues.

 

[4orRunner]

You wouldn't necessarily feel it in the brake pedal. The pedal and master cylinder itself is connected to the brakes via flexible fluid lines so you'd never feel it through the pedal. Where you would feel it is in the steering since it makes the wheels wobble.

When you press on the brakes, do you get a strong shake in the steering wheel and if bad enough, front end wobble? If yes it it most definitely the rotors. They need to be turned since they have warped. The upside is that it's cheap to do and with the thicker Tundra rotors you can do it a whole lot before it's too thin to use.

Agreed, the brakes in my old taco were warped like hell and the wheel would shake, but I was never able to feel it in the pedal itself. If I did, I would immediately assume an ABS malfunction. I opted to swap the rotors and pads out for new ones and the problem was gone. Brakes are cheap all things considered, so I would check those first regardless of whether or not you did the tundra upgrade.

 

[gamefreakgc]

looks like I might be suffering from brake judder -

New brake pads need a smooth, clean surface to lay down an even transfer film. Residue from the previous pad compound on the surface or an uneven transfer film from overheating the new pads will cause the pads to grip-slip-grip-slip as they pass over the rotor surface under pressure. The resulting vibrations and noise telegraph and amplify as they pass through the suspension and steering components of the vehicle. This vibration and noise is known as brake judder or brake shimmy. This is often misdiagnosed as a warped rotor. If caught early enough, this can be fixed by cleaning the rotor surfaces with 200 grit garnet paper followed by spray brake cleaner to remove any compound buildup on the rotors. Then the pads should be re-bedded following the manufacturer’s instructions. Normally this will eliminate the judder and noise issues.

Turning the rotors would have the same effect and be a more sure fix. You might clean them off and find the problem is still there. Then again, at least if you do this process you can just do it at home in your garage.

 

[nevada]

Drive shaft vibration is typically very quick vibrations, and usually occurs at a certain speed (which relates to the driveshaft rpm) regardless of brake position.

this.

looks like I might be suffering from brake judder -

New brake pads need a smooth, clean surface to lay down an even transfer film. Residue from the previous pad compound on the surface or an uneven transfer film from overheating the new pads will cause the pads to grip-slip-grip-slip as they pass over the rotor surface under pressure. The resulting vibrations and noise telegraph and amplify as they pass through the suspension and steering components of the vehicle. This vibration and noise is known as brake judder or brake shimmy. This is often misdiagnosed as a warped rotor. If caught early enough, this can be fixed by cleaning the rotor surfaces with 200 grit garnet paper followed by spray brake cleaner to remove any compound buildup on the rotors. Then the pads should be re-bedded following the manufacturer’s instructions. Normally this will eliminate the judder and noise issues.

you can try as suggested, and it may work. if it doesn't, I suggest having the rotors resurfaced, and replacing the pads.

 

[reelamin]

Turning the rotors would have the same effect and be a more sure fix. You might clean them off and find the problem is still there. Then again, at least if you do this process you can just do it at home in your garage.

We run a lot of vehicles at work and no question use and abuse the brakes. Don't waste your time turning the rotors. Once their warped their done unless you want to baby them, and even then they wont last. We finally found a local mechanic who will not turn rotors on brake jobs.
He does exactly as we ask him. No new caliper lies, only removes all the old setting with sanding flail, new pads, we break them in properly, and we don't have any troubles until the next set of pads.

I was taught the same procedure as a kid and still use it today. My highest mileage personal vehicle (Suburban) with 270k was bought new by me. It has original rotors and brakes smooth as ever. I don't ever remember replacing a rotor on any vehicle I owned if it had good rotors to start with.

 

[gamefreakgc]

We run a lot of vehicles at work and no question use and abuse the brakes. Don't waste your time turning the rotors. Once their warped their done unless you want to baby them, and even then they wont last. We finally found a local mechanic who will not turn rotors on brake jobs.
He does exactly as we ask him. No new caliper lies, only removes all the old setting with sanding flail, new pads, we break them in properly, and we don't have any troubles until the next set of pads.

I was taught the same procedure as a kid and still use it today. My highest mileage personal vehicle (Suburban) with 270k was bought new by me. It has original rotors and brakes smooth as ever. I don't ever remember replacing a rotor on any vehicle I owned if it had good rotors to start with.

For sure. I am replacing the rotors on the 4Runner I bought last year in the next few weeks that has the original rotors and pads on it. I'm not going to bother turning them since it would be a waste of time since my vibrations I get are massive, possible even unsafe.

For the OP though, I don't know if they want to drop the $100-ish dollars for new rotors, especially if he's going to just try and clean them off. If I remember correctly, NAPA/Riebes will turn the rotors for free if they have a shop?

 

[nevada]

We run a lot of vehicles at work and no question use and abuse the brakes. Don't waste your time turning the rotors. Once their warped their done unless you want to baby them, and even then they wont last. We finally found a local mechanic who will not turn rotors on brake jobs.
He does exactly as we ask him. No new caliper lies, only removes all the old setting with sanding flail, new pads, we break them in properly, and we don't have any troubles until the next set of pads.

I was taught the same procedure as a kid and still use it today. My highest mileage personal vehicle (Suburban) with 270k was bought new by me. It has original rotors and brakes smooth as ever. I don't ever remember replacing a rotor on any vehicle I owned if it had good rotors to start with.

I would say that is not true 95% of the time. also, typically a pulsation is not caused from warped rotors, but rather pad imprinting. unevenly deposited friction material. when this happens, all that is required is a very light cut, to remove the surface material, and allow you to bed in new pads properly.




you have been lucky.

I resurface a lot of rotors, I also replace a lot. I would say 9 times out of 10, when a customer comes in complaining about a pulsation, they have recently had the brakes replaced. the rotors weren't touched, they just "slapped pads on", this will actually CAUSE a pulsation most times. due to a different type of pad being used, and not removing the old original friction material. I see it a LOT.


if the pads are changed, you must ensure the brakes have a perfectly flat, clean and smooth surface to bed against. either by replacing, or resurfacing the rotors.