Engine Management Software...hmmmm

[Ryan1975]

EcuTek - Advanced ECU Technology

Hmmmm...I made a thread a few months back in the Engine subforum, response was less than enthusiasic about what I was trying to find out.

Stumbled across this website a few weeks ago and I think this is what I want.

Bottom line: I'm less than impressed with the engine management software in today's 4Runner. I'm thinking after warranty is up (that'll be soon) that I might experiment and see if I can improve the driving experience with new engine and transmission ECUs. It'll be a process to tune and replicate certain manufactuer experiences but I don't see it as being impossible.

 

[adam2562]

if someone found a way to re-tune the way the transmission shifts you will be an ALMIGHTY GOD in my eyes.. that's all i want



my 666th post muahahahahaha

 

[Ryan1975]

if someone found a way to re-tune the way the transmission shifts you will be an ALMIGHTY GOD in my eyes.. that's all i want



my 666th post muahahahahaha

Wouldn't be hard, just costly. Once the initial tuning is done it could be shared across the community saving in further tuning costs.

 

[chrisdowling84]

Bully Dog - GT T+ for Toyota Just saw this on HP television this weekend

 

[Ryan1975]

Bully Dog - GT T+ for Toyota Just saw this on HP television this weekend

I wasn't aware of that, though the level of customizations are very limited. Hmm - that's an easy way out (and significantly cheaper)

 

[WillK]

I haven't looked into it, but is the transmission controlled by the ECU or is there a separate TCU for that?

 

[Ryan1975]

I haven't looked into it, but is the transmission controlled by the ECU or is there a separate TCU for that?

I haven't found any resources yet (not saying my searches have been that exhaustive) that detail either way. Kinda my point in making this thread.

My ultimate goal is finding an ideal solution in ridding my truck of some of the more undesirable driving characteristics from engine power cut while tapping my brake controller to computer assisted braking when Toyota engineers think I need help to the whole truck going into convulsions while driving on farm roads.

 

[homeyclaus]

Most Toyotas are single ECU, meaning that the engine management and transmission control are one unit. There are microcontrollers between the ECU and the transmission, but you need to look at them as CAN bus clients that respond to ECU commands. There is some fail-safe logic there should there be a bus failure, but I am not going to pull a plug to see how or if it works.

Which means - any CAN bus command originator with the right command format (the bus is a standard, and the commands are not) can cause transmission shifts. For instance, I have seen a Tundra with a Lexus paddle shift steering wheel and the paddle shifters "just work" when in S mode. There is no reason this would not work on a 4Runner, so if you see a suitable Lexus paddle shift steering wheel at a wrecking yard, it's worth a try. It does need to be 2009 or later for the best chance of it working.

The problem here is figuring out the command formats, in terms of aftermarket control.

 

[Ryan1975]

That's the kind if info I've been looking for. Thanks.

Next up is if I need/can shod go back in time for another ecu or go with some of the other options already discussed.

 

[homeyclaus]

That's the kind if info I've been looking for. Thanks.

Next up is if I need/can shod go back in time for another ecu or go with some of the other options already discussed.

Not really. The issue is that a single ECU implementation is both specific engine, engine subtype, transmission, transmission subtype specific. So you'd need to find an ECU for a 1GR-FE dual VVTi with an A750E or F transmission.

This being said, the data is in an EEPROM, and there are ways to both update the software, as well as the "maps" the software reads. I would expect than transmission shift schedules live in the maps as a combination of throttle position, speed, rpm, and some other factors.

So if you want to mess with that, you'd want a separate ECU, so you can throw the original one back in when things go weird. The caveat is that all things on the Toyota CAN bus systems are VIN-number and magic-number synchronized, and since it's a single ECU you'll need to set the VIN, determine the magic number, and then program all your keys into the new ECU, before things will work. This isn't something the ebay TechStream systems can do, you need the real software with the locksmith endorsement. The procedure is in the FSM, and it's not very pleasant, nor cheap.

A possibly better approach is to have a CAN bus client that reads relevant data (like a ScanGauge, but software-readable) and then tap into transmission control input between its bus client/ecu and the actual transmission, and override it from there. Not for the faint of heart, unless you can get both male and female plugs for the transmission interface and re-route select cables. Tapping into the 28ga or smaller cables is an exercise in frustration.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

If you have a Trail, I've heard you can unblock your hood scoop. Supposedly good for about 15hp and 3mpg

 

[philsey]

Not really. The issue is that a single ECU implementation is both specific engine, engine subtype, transmission, transmission subtype specific. So you'd need to find an ECU for a 1GR-FE dual VVTi with an A750E or F transmission.

This being said, the data is in an EEPROM, and there are ways to both update the software, as well as the "maps" the software reads. I would expect than transmission shift schedules live in the maps as a combination of throttle position, speed, rpm, and some other factors.

So if you want to mess with that, you'd want a separate ECU, so you can throw the original one back in when things go weird. The caveat is that all things on the Toyota CAN bus systems are VIN-number and magic-number synchronized, and since it's a single ECU you'll need to set the VIN, determine the magic number, and then program all your keys into the new ECU, before things will work. This isn't something the ebay TechStream systems can do, you need the real software with the locksmith endorsement. The procedure is in the FSM, and it's not very pleasant, nor cheap.

A possibly better approach is to just use S-mode.

Fixed.

 

[Nachies]

If you have a Trail, I've heard you can unblock your hood scoop. Supposedly good for about 15hp and 3mpg

If you put it in neutral (N) and have a few friends push you down the road, you'll save more MPG's.



.

 

[Ryan1975]

Not really. The issue is that a single ECU implementation is both specific engine, engine subtype, transmission, transmission subtype specific. So you'd need to find an ECU for a 1GR-FE dual VVTi with an A750E or F transmission.

So from a cost and complexity standpoint - aside from going stand alone - sticking with current model year and versioning is nearly required.

This being said, the data is in an EEPROM, and there are ways to both update the software, as well as the "maps" the software reads. I would expect than transmission shift schedules live in the maps as a combination of throttle position, speed, rpm, and some other factors.

Sounds exactly how we ran in the Syclone / Typhoon Community. I don't see this is as much of an issue.

So if you want to mess with that, you'd want a separate ECU, so you can throw the original one back in when things go weird. The caveat is that all things on the Toyota CAN bus systems are VIN-number and magic-number synchronized, and since it's a single ECU you'll need to set the VIN, determine the magic number, and then program all your keys into the new ECU, before things will work. This isn't something the ebay TechStream systems can do, you need the real software with the locksmith endorsement. The procedure is in the FSM, and it's not very pleasant, nor cheap.

I've seen some engine swap threads addressing the magic number before and yes, you're right, it can get quite complicated. As far as mentioning Tech Stream, that was my comment in that thread months ago - Where was the functionality...sure changing a few small parameters is nifty...but where is the true tuning and change capability programs?

A possibly better approach is to have a CAN bus client that reads relevant data (like a ScanGauge, but software-readable) and then tap into transmission control input between its bus client/ecu and the actual transmission, and override it from there. Not for the faint of heart, unless you can get both male and female plugs for the transmission interface and re-route select cables. Tapping into the 28ga or smaller cables is an exercise in frustration.

More to ponder.

 

[eddiebx]

addressing the magic number before and yes, you're right, it can get quite complicated. As far as mentioning Tech Stream, that was my comment in that thread months ago - Where was the functionality...sure changing a few small parameters is nifty...but where is the true tuning and change capability programs?

Locked away by Toyota Motor Corp, lol. I don't doubt that you can probably tune all of the fuel maps/ignition maps/shift points in the factory ECM via the canbus through a techstream like software, but you can damn well bet Toyota has done their best to make it as hard as possible for the aftermarket to crack.

I think it's going to be a long while until we can see proven software on the market, if ever. Call me paranoid, but I wouldn't trust a new tuning software that claims to be able to edit the factory ECM properly without extensive real world testing to back it up.

Like Homey said, the ECMs these days are very complex and you need to make sure that every bit of code being edited is being formatted correctly, one wrong 0 or 1 could mean disaster at the worst possible moment. Best thing to do is get a spare ECM to screw around with and keep the factory working one in the vehicle for when you experience a hiccup that leaves you stranded.

I used to play around on the dyno with stand alone engine management systems back in the day and I have to say, getting into raw tuning of the fuel and ignition maps is no walk in the park, things can get ugly quick. This is probably why Toyota tries to keep the average hobbyist from messing with it, lol.

 

[Yotta]

A bit of a side question. In the context of OBD readers and Torque (or similar software), is there any accessible documentation about what kind of sensors can be read and how to interpret the data coming from them? From a brief look at the 'net the process seems to work mostly through trial and error, is there a better way?

 

[Ryan1975]

I used to play around on the dyno with stand alone engine management systems back in the day and I have to say, getting into raw tuning of the fuel and ignition maps is no walk in the park, things can get ugly quick. This is probably why Toyota tries to keep the average hobbyist from messing with it, lol.

A buddy of mine had a very raw, gutted Turbo civic that he wanted me to help him tune on the Autobahn in germany...at full boost changing numbers in indivdual cells proved quite difficult.

 

[homeyclaus]

A bit of a side question. In the context of OBD readers and Torque (or similar software), is there any accessible documentation about what kind of sensors can be read and how to interpret the data coming from them? From a brief look at the 'net the process seems to work mostly through trial and error, is there a better way?

OBD is a government standard (specifically, OBD II), so all you're guaranteed to get are the government-mandated error codes.

Most OBD readers support the CAN bus, and some support the J2534 extensions.

Those readers see all traffic on the CAN bus, but the software will only have the header and prefix bits to understand some of them, since they are vendor-specific. So something like the TechStream can go far enough to kick your Toyota Navi into diagnostic mode and show you all sorts of cool stuff. A generic interpreter won't know what the 1's and 0's in those particular packets mean.

A buddy of mine had a very raw, gutted Turbo civic that he wanted me to help him tune on the Autobahn in germany...at full boost changing numbers in indivdual cells proved quite difficult.

Which is why anyone doing more than casual fiddling goes with a piggyback solution. One thing the car manufacturers can't obfuscate is their wiring diagram, and a modern engine has a fixed set of inputs and outputs. A piggyback with appropriate software can capture the signals and begin to map the relationship between all of them. Once the ranges are learned, subtle changes can be introduced. As long as the ECU's input (the engine's output) parameters' ranges are not exceeded, the OEM ECU won't throw a check engine light.

So still - better, still kind of a hack, and still not for the faint of heart.

 

[homeyclaus]

Just a quick update - there are free and open-source ECU programs that run on commodity hardware. I don't see why one can't build an ECU piggyback for a T4R or other Toyota and tweak certain behaviors.

Projects - DIYEFI.org
FreeEMS

 

[Ryan1975]

Just a quick update - there are free and open-source ECU programs that run on commodity hardware. I don't see why one can't build an ECU piggyback for a T4R or other Toyota and tweak certain behaviors.

Projects - DIYEFI.org
FreeEMS

I read with interest the story on the kid with the Tacoma...and I'm not sure this is the best option...though it's an awesome option.

Expound: FreeEMS is exactly that...open source freeware for engine tuning. Whereas the product first linked in the opening post is commercial and already developed, this is still being developed right down to the user interface.

Something like Speedpro or what have you, is already engineered, just ready to have someone tune it. (sounds so simple, right?)

...which leaves me...right here...with nothing...sorta.

The big question in my Monster Energy drink addled mind is...how many ECUs do we have in our truck? I was searching this morning for about an hour and found that we probably have 3 or 4?

- Engine
- Transmission
- Bodymount ECU
- ???