Engine won't start - new starter contacts + plunger, new Interstate battery

[3ngineer]

I'm slightly stumped. I bought a 99 3.4L V6 auto from a forum member a few weeks ago, it started and drove well, then last Sunday the car suddenly wouldn't start. Dash lights turn on, but when I turn the key I hear 3 distinct clicks coming from the starter area. Here's what I've tried (in order) with no avail:

1. Turned key, 3 clicks from starter area
2. Tried charging battery with Costco charger
3. Tried jumping the car with another car
4. Pulled starter out, changed contacts + plunger
5. Brought starter to Oreily's for testing, starter passed (it worked!!)
6. Installed starter, turned key (no start still)
7. Brought battery to Oreily's for testing, battery failed (bad cell)
8. Purchased new group 24F Interstate battery from Costco (700 CCA)
10. Installed new battery, turned key (no start)
11. Swapped starter relays with a friend's Toyota truck. My relay worked in his, his relay didn't work in mine.
12. Attached jumper cable to starter positive terminal, touched negative jumper cable to car frame. Saw sparks, but still no start.

Other things I've done:
-replaced positive battery terminal
-cleaned negative battery terminal
- visibly checked wires/connectors - very little to no corrosion (haven't cut back any insulation b/c the exposed parts look pretty clean)

I suspected the negative/ground connection on the starter was bad since it's just the small plastic connector, but bypassing it completely with the jumper cable still didn't work. I have a re-man. Denso starter coming in the mail just in case (free returns), but I don't want to go into part-swapping mode.

Any other ideas? What else should I check?:cheers:

Michael

 

[3bears]

I too will go with a security system issue

 

[Makitso]

Both the body and the engine have to be grounded properly. Follow the negative battery cable to block by the oil filter and make sure it is clean and tight. The starter is grounded by being bolted to block, not by a little wire. Try connecting your jumper cable from the negative battery terminal to the engine block and see if that works.

 

[3ngineer]

I too will go with a security system issue

Not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

Both the body and the engine have to be grounded properly. Follow the negative battery cable to block by the oil filter and make sure it is clean and tight. The starter is grounded by being bolted to block, not by a little wire. Try connecting your jumper cable from the negative battery terminal to the engine block and see if that works.

Just tried jumping the negative battery terminal to the engine block, no luck. Granted my valve cover gaskets are seeping a little but I still found a few spots with pretty solid connections.

 

[spartacus]

there is a 40 amp fuse in the same box that has the starter relay . it will say AM1 40 amp. check that fuse and the one that says 120 a ALT. in fact check all your fuses while you are at it.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

The small wire gets power in start position. You hear the klick down at the starter so that part works.

If you turn on your headlights when it's dark do the headlights dim noticeably when compaired to lights just on and not trying to start it?

With a meter on the battery posts how much voltage is there at rest and also with key held in the start position.

Read the voltage of the big cable at the starter while someone holds the key in start. What does it compared to at the + battery post under same condition.

Lastly can you rotate the engine with a wrench on the crank bolt?




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[3ngineer]

there is a 40 amp fuse in the same box that has the starter relay . it will say AM1 40 amp. check that fuse and the one that says 120 a ALT. in fact check all your fuses while you are at it.

I checked all the fuses already, I forgot to mention that. They all have continuity so they're good.

The small wire gets power in start position. You hear the klick down at the starter so that part works.

If you turn on your headlights when it's dark do the headlights dim noticeably when compaired to lights just on and not trying to start it?

With a meter on the battery posts how much voltage is there at rest and also with key held in the start position.

Read the voltage of the big cable at the starter while someone holds the key in start. What does it compared to at the + battery post under same condition.

Lastly can you rotate the engine with a wrench on the crank bolt?

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I'll give these a shot tomorrow. Thanks.

 

[3ngineer]

Both the body and the engine have to be grounded properly. Follow the negative battery cable to block by the oil filter and make sure it is clean and tight. The starter is grounded by being bolted to block, not by a little wire. Try connecting your jumper cable from the negative battery terminal to the engine block and see if that works.

Also, thanks for correcting me on the starter ground! That makes a lot more sense.

 

[spartacus]

Starter needs power from the battery, ground and a wire to the solenoid to make it actually start. The starter is connected directly to the battery for power. Its grounded to the engine and do you have the 12 volts from the starter relay? 40 amp main fuse for the starter relay is good?. I'd pull the starter relay and see if 12 volts is getting to it when I turned the key to the crank direction.

In general.The starter activation goes: Ignition Switch/ Starter Fuse / Park Neutral Switch, starter
relay.
No imobilizer. No wire shorts. Work your way backwards from The Starter to the fuse box.
Trouble shootIng is tedious But Satisfying if you can fix it but A Let Down If You Cant yet The Knowledge You Gain Is Priceless.

 

[sawguy]

Don't want to confuse this thread but I have the same problem only with 1 click instead of three. I replaced the starter relay with no luck. Batt connections are good and won't jump start.

 

[3ngineer]

Starter needs power from the battery, ground and a wire to the solenoid to make it actually start. The starter is connected directly to the battery for power. Its grounded to the engine and do you have the 12 volts from the starter relay? 40 amp main fuse for the starter relay is good?. I'd pull the starter relay and see if 12 volts is getting to it when I turned the key to the crank direction.

In general.The starter activation goes: Ignition Switch/ Starter Fuse / Park Neutral Switch, starter
relay.
No imobilizer. No wire shorts. Work your way backwards from The Starter to the fuse box.
Trouble shootIng is tedious But Satisfying if you can fix it but A Let Down If You Cant yet The Knowledge You Gain Is Priceless.

You know what, I just thought of something else whilst reading your post and this thread (http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...power-engine-dont-turn-over-my-4runner-2.html) that [MENTION=10169]TheDurk[/MENTION] was on.

Right before the car wouldn't start, I disconnected the ScangaugeII from it's mounted location on the HVAC control panel, right above the air vents. The cable was super-duper tight, and I had to give it a good yank to get enough room to disconnect the SG from the rear. Since that runs down to the OBD port below the steering wheel trim, I could have loosened some connections in the ignition switch area at the same time. I'll check those connections tonight.

But in step 12 of my original post, I did manually apply voltage to the starter and the engine still didn't turn over. Does doing so completely bypass the fusebox/wiring assembly?

 

[3ngineer]

Forgot to tag [MENTION=102597]IBallEngineer[/MENTION] as a big help in the above thread as well.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

Your starter circuit only is real simple. No 'Puter is involved. Just the Park-Neutral switch or the Clutch depressed pedal.

If you hear the loud klick at the starter all that works. The little wire on the starter should have battery voltage above 9.0-9.5vdc with the key in the start position.

The big wire has power at all times. And also needs to be above the 9.0-9.5vdc while its solenoid is energized.

The reason I use 9.0vdc (ish) as minimum is because around that voltage the starter relay in the underhood junction box as well as the big starter solenoid will fail to energize and close its contacts.




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[spartacus]

Both the body and the engine have to be grounded properly. Follow the negative battery cable to block by the oil filter and make sure it is clean and tight. The starter is grounded by being bolted to block, not by a little wire. Try connecting your jumper cable from the negative battery terminal to the engine block and see if that works.

when you applied direct voltage you by passed the relays etc but did you connect the black/negative jumper cable as a ground between the drivetrain and negative terminal of the battery. Makitso( "Try connecting your jumper cable from the negative battery terminal to the engine block and see if that works.[/QUOTE]")

Make sure the truck is in park and the ignition is off also when you are doing this to take extra precaution DC amps from the starter are high and dangerous.
I am pretty sure that if the starter didn't fire up earlier and fires up when you ground it. means most likely bad ground.

 

[3ngineer]

Update: I realized the clicking happens when the key is in "on", not "start". Sounds like it's the relays opening/closing. Nothing happens when turned to start. No clicking, no sounds.

[MENTION=50279]spartacus[/MENTION], how do I test the AM1 40A fuse? I'm not sure how to remove it and it doesn't have exposed portions like the other fuses. I directly connected the starter positive terminal to the battery negative terminal and melted a the battery terminal a bit. Whoops. Did I just fry the battery? I tried starting the car after this and noticed the radio & clock would dim/turn off while in "start". That wouldn't happen before...

I'm suspecting a bad ground, as you mentioned, Spartacus.

 

[spartacus]

why did you put the starter positive to battery negative. Always keep the positive with positive and negative to ground. you may done more harm if the ignition was on. let me explain in detail With the ignition turned off and the transmission in (park) and with all due care connect one end of the red-positive jumper cable to the positive terminal of the battery. Touch the other end of the red cable to the positive terminal on the starter motor for a second.The starter should spin/crank the engine. If it does, the problem is with the cables, connections or relay. If it doesn't, crank the engine, connect the black(negative) jumper cable as a ground between the drivetrain and negative terminal of the battery or chas is or enine ground. Touch the red cable to the starter's positive terminal for a second. If the starter cranks the engine, the problem is a bad chassis ground. or
*to test that the starter solenoid. put the car in park and have someone else sit ready in the driver's seat. Under the hood, pull out the ignition lead from the starter solenoid Connect the red lead of a voltmeter to the end of the ignition lead while grounding the voltmeter's black lead by touching it against the frame of the starter. Have the driver turn the ignition key and start the car. For a functional starter solenoid, the voltmeter should register 12 volts.

as far as relay you pull the 40 amp fuse or relay and use a multimeter red to the terminals and black to chasis ground or body ground.when ignition is on.the contacts that are in the fuse box. do you have a test light they are great in detecting ground faults.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

If you have no klick in start then you need to look at why.

First thing is put your hand on the start relay in the under hood junction box and see if you can feel it klick when you put the key to start.

If you do not feel it klick pull the relay and look for 12v on the slot that lines up with terminal 1 of the relay with key in start.

If you do then look for a ground on the slot that lines up with terminal 2 of the relay.

If you have a ground on 2 and 12v on 1 with key in start the relay if good should be klicking.

If your relay under the hood operates with key in start then you need to remove the small wire from the starter and look for 12v there with key in start.

A test light is much easier to use to test this.

To look for power on the slot for pin 1 of the relay you simply clip the clamp to any bolt or the neg battery terminal and put the probe in the slot. With key in start position the bulb should light up bright.

To look for a ground (comming from the trans or clutch switch) on the slot from pin 2 you simply put the probe in the slot for the relay pin 2 and clip the wire to the battery + terminal. If you have a automatic it should light up with the trans gear selector in both park and neutral. If you have a manual trans pushing in the clutch should light the bulb.


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[3ngineer]

[MENTION=50279]spartacus[/MENTION] thanks for the steps. Luckily ignition wasn't on. To confirm, here's what I'm doing:

1st test: Connect red jumper to battery (+) terminal. Carefully touch other end of red jumper to starter (+) terminal. What position should the key be in? Isn't this the same as the current config since the starter has a direct battery connection?

2nd test (if 1st test fails): Leave red jumper to battery (+). Connect one end of black jumper to battery (-), other end of black jumper to engine block or chassis. Am I understanding the black jumper connections right? Carefully touch other end of red jumper to starter (+) terminal. What position should the key be in?

[MENTION=99144]19963.4lsr5[/MENTION] I'll start checking the starter relay etc if the above fails. Thanks for writing that out!

 

[19963.4lsr5]

If You are wanting try and operate the starter with the jumper cables it's not going to work the way you are doing it.

The tab that the small wire goes to is where you need to put 12v from the battery on. That will spin the starter. It's easier to pull the starter relay and stick a stripped piece of wire in the slot for relay pin 3 is and touch the other end to the battery positive post.

*******Do not accidentally put the wire in the slot for pin 2 or you will fry the park-neutral safety switch.******


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[spartacus]

here is the fsm testing starter instruction.*to test