ET lugnuts solved wheel balance/vibration problem 65-72 mph

[Arv]

Just wanted to share that after 12 years of headaches and 2 sets of aftermarket wheels and 3 set of tires. Back coning (not necesarrily with the haweka adapter) with roadforce machine and ET(extended thread) lugnuts solved wheel balance vibration problem 65-72 mph on my 2K 4R! So they basically look like acorn lugs with a short shank. In the past I would have them torque the wheels up in the air while depressing the brake pedals but I guess that was not enough. The short shank really helps center the wheels on the lugs like the stock.

Hope this helps!!! (and that this is not a re-post, if it is then I'm just confirming it!)

 

[GX4SEVEND]

I might just have to try this. I've had two different sets of wheels and tires on mine now and I still have the vibration. The stock wheels and tires weren't bad at all. But now I have 5 stars with duratracs and it vibrates at 55 or so to like 80. Tires have been balanced twice now and I've had two alignments and nothing has fixed it. I was starting to think it was the tires being out of round.

 

[THEREALTOR1]

Woah, hold up, i'm confused, but interested as hell, as i've been dealing with this issue since I put the 99's and coil spacers on the front and i'm just about to the point where i'm going to rip the entire suspension back down to stock and start all over.

As soon as I lifted it the problem started occuring, even with the factory rims (and now with my aftermarket rims). I've wondered if my wheels are out of balance, as the guys at firestone have weights all over them and it still feels like i'm driving a washing machine down the highway. I'll have to do some google searching i guess for "back coning" "roadforce machine", etc, but can you post a pic or link to the lugnuts your talking about? Thanks Arv.

 

[theizzardking]

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/perfo...argers-more/173-tire-balancing-must-read.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...es-96-02-haweka-vs-hunter-flange-adapter.html

Tire balance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you could also always pay a bit more and get them road forced, but really using the right lug nuts, tightening them right (in the air) and using the right adapter for balance you shouldn't have any issues provided the job was done right, weight on both the inside and outside of the rim is a sign of a bad balance job also if there's a crap ton of them on there as well, it really shouldn't take much weight to get things to balance out

 

[Arv]

Woah, hold up, i'm confused, but interested as hell, as i've been dealing with this issue since I put the 99's and coil spacers on the front and i'm just about to the point where i'm going to rip the entire suspension back down to stock and start all over.

As soon as I lifted it the problem started occuring, even with the factory rims (and now with my aftermarket rims). I've wondered if my wheels are out of balance, as the guys at firestone have weights all over them and it still feels like i'm driving a washing machine down the highway. I'll have to do some google searching i guess for "back coning" "roadforce machine", etc, but can you post a pic or link to the lugnuts your talking about? Thanks Arv.

Here’s how they look like. Gorilla 68621N $18.7 Wheel Locks - Set of 4 E/T Ultra Tapered Mag Seat, Chrome 13/16" Hex Key Included 12mm x 1.25 Thread
I’m not sure if these are exactly the ones I have but it’s the same concept so other brands will work, the key is the extended thread/shank.

EDIT: Not sure how I got 1.25 but you'll need the 1.5s!!!!!!!

You can do a lot of googling about this problem but I’ll save you the time and effort since believe me I’ve been doing it forever and unless I just missed the thing about these extended thread lug nuts I didn’t seem to find any reference to them on the threads where people have these vibration problems at around 65mph.


Now your case is different since you have this problem with the factory wheels/lug nuts too. IMHO its worth a try with your aftermarket wheels since you’re going to need them anyway but it might not totally solve the problem but please let us know if it does or improves things.

As for back coning/haweka adapter. Toyota has a TSB about this but I don't think the haweka adapter is a must. The important thing is back coning and securing the wheel. I've done both ways and it didn't really matter until I put in the ET lugs nuts. In fact the last time it was balanced it was without the "finger" adapter, they had it back coned and had a rubber suction looking thing up front to secure the wheel. It still vibrated until we switched the lug nuts WITHOUT rebalancing.

Also make sure they zero it out. I think some "smart weight" balancing does not zero it out when balancing.

 

[Arv]

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/perfo...argers-more/173-tire-balancing-must-read.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...es-96-02-haweka-vs-hunter-flange-adapter.html

Tire balance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you could also always pay a bit more and get them road forced, but really using the right lug nuts, tightening them right (in the air) and using the right adapter for balance you shouldn't have any issues provided the job was done right, weight on both the inside and outside of the rim is a sign of a bad balance job also if there's a crap ton of them on there as well, it really shouldn't take much weight to get things to balance out

Thanks for putting the above info together, saved me some time to search for those.

 

[Arv]

I might just have to try this. I've had two different sets of wheels and tires on mine now and I still have the vibration. The stock wheels and tires weren't bad at all. But now I have 5 stars with duratracs and it vibrates at 55 or so to like 80. Tires have been balanced twice now and I've had two alignments and nothing has fixed it. I was starting to think it was the tires being out of round.

your range seem to be wider than mine. I usually have the problem only about 65 to 72 then it gets smoother the faster you go. Have you done a roadforce balance? If the tires are bad then it will show up and if they have to be re-mounted 180 degrees or whatever the machine says to compensate for the wheel and tire imperfection then that should help. They've done that with mine and the lugnuts was still the final answer. Well I'm hoping it is, but since I have it good now, I don't want to touch my wheels again. But I don't think I just got lucky since we didn't rebalance when we put the ET lugs on.

My Pirelli ATRs were spot on! I think he said one of them was .001 off. Michellins are supposed to be the best tires in terms of construction/ease to balance (roundness/eveness) but I didn't have any luck with CrossTerrain SUVs when they first came out. Goodyears were the worst (sorry don't mean to offend anyone) and these were not cheap ones either, I gave them to my brother in law and the tire shop he took them too said the tires were not that great too so it was not my other set of wheels.

Hope this helps.

 

[ryhi]

for those of you who want to run ET lugnuts it would be a good idea to check and make sure they will fit the holes of your wheels. i bought a set and found that none of my aftermarket wheels had holes wide enough to run them correctly.

 

[Arv]

for those of you who want to run ET lugnuts it would be a good idea to check and make sure they will fit the holes of your wheels. i bought a set and found that none of my aftermarket wheels had holes wide enough to run them correctly.

great suggestion, thanks!
I thought about this but thought that with the quality of craftsmanship these days and trying to build a product for multiple applications that manufacturers will have a lot of leeway to accomodate diff apps. Yours must have been built specific to you app.

 

[Brian757]

I put ET lugs in when I put on my wheel spacers. I haven't had a single problem. Glad I shelled out more money than I thought I needed. That sounded like a headache with you!

 

[Arv]

I put ET lugs in when I put on my wheel spacers. I haven't had a single problem. Glad I shelled out more money than I thought I needed. That sounded like a headache with you!

Good to know Brian! Thanks!
That's the main reason why i wanted to share this info. It has been hell at times considering the time I've spent at the tire shop. It was great pointing this out to the other shop's manager. He kept insisting that there was a problem with my vehicle.

 

[THEREALTOR1]

Here’s how they look like. Gorilla 68621N $18.7 Wheel Locks - Set of 4 E/T Ultra Tapered Mag Seat, Chrome 13/16" Hex Key Included 12mm x 1.25 Thread
I’m not sure if these are exactly the ones I have but it’s the same concept so other brands will work, the key is the extended thread/shank.

Thanks for the link Arv. I'll have to check those out. Here's the lugnuts I got to go with my aftermarket rims:

Gorilla 91138BC $1.89 Black Lug Nuts Acorn Bulge Seat 13/16" Hex Head 12mm x 1.50 Thread

Similar to the ones you posted, but i'll have to do more comparison when I have some time.

Also, thanks Izzard for the links i'll have to check them out.

 

[Arv]

Thanks for the link Arv. I'll have to check those out. Here's the lugnuts I got to go with my aftermarket rims:

Gorilla 91138BC $1.89 Black Lug Nuts Acorn Bulge Seat 13/16" Hex Head 12mm x 1.50 Thread

Similar to the ones you posted, but i'll have to do more comparison when I have some time.

Also, thanks Izzard for the links i'll have to check them out.

Np. Glad I could help.
The ones you have are the regular ones, they don't have the extended thread/shank.

 

[THEREALTOR1]

Np. Glad I could help.
The ones you have are the regular ones, they don't have the extended thread/shank.

Yeah I see they're approx .3" longer and have the shank end vs the acorned end. I can't remember why I went to the acorn (think there was a write up on here pointing me in that direction), but you think as long as the shank will fit thru the pre-drilled stud post mounting hole on the rim that should bring everything more in line? I can certainly see how it would seem to create a more secured fitting all the way around.

I haven't read thru Izzard's links yet but what steps would you recommend Arv (as you've sort of laid down some framework already on which order things should go in)? Order a set of the shanked/extended LN's and swap out before my next alignment? I've got a lifetime deal with Firestone (which i know isn't exactly the best alignment money can buy), but i'm hoping if these work maybe I can take it in and ask for someone to properly rotate/balance(weight)/align everything properly and in conjunction with these LN's maybe that'll solve everything? Also what's your opinion on just replacing the front's with these? This is where it seems that all of the vibration is taking place, so do you think I could get by with just swapping out the fronts (at least for now)? Thanks again.

EDIT: I've just noticed in reviewing your LN's compared to mine, for some reason I ordered 12 mm x 1.50 thread pitch, and your's are 12mm x 1.25 thread pitch (which i think is what came up when I searched by make/model of vehicle). I want to say I remember searching by vehicle specific when I ordered mine, I wonder how I ended up with the 1.50 tp and I wonder if thats any of the cause behind everything?

 

[Arv]

Yeah I see they're approx .3" longer and have the shank end vs the acorned end. I can't remember why I went to the acorn (think there was a write up on here pointing me in that direction), but you think as long as the shank will fit thru the pre-drilled stud post mounting hole on the rim that should bring everything more in line? I can certainly see how it would seem to create a more secured fitting all the way around.

I haven't read thru Izzard's links yet but what steps would you recommend Arv (as you've sort of laid down some framework already on which order things should go in)? Order a set of the shanked/extended LN's and swap out before my next alignment? I've got a lifetime deal with Firestone (which i know isn't exactly the best alignment money can buy), but i'm hoping if these work maybe I can take it in and ask for someone to properly rotate/balance(weight)/align everything properly and in conjunction with these LN's maybe that'll solve everything? Also what's your opinion on just replacing the front's with these? This is where it seems that all of the vibration is taking place, so do you think I could get by with just swapping out the fronts (at least for now)? Thanks again.

EDIT: I've just noticed in reviewing your LN's compared to mine, for some reason I ordered 12 mm x 1.50 thread pitch, and your's are 12mm x 1.25 thread pitch (which i think is what came up when I searched by make/model of vehicle). I want to say I remember searching by vehicle specific when I ordered mine, I wonder how I ended up with the 1.50 tp and I wonder if thats any of the cause behind everything?

No you're right with the 1.5, not sure why I ended up with 1.25 when I did a quick lookup at that site. I don't think the 1.25 would go on a 1.5 stud so that's not the root of the problem here.

I should change that when I get a chance.

As for the alignment, don't sweat it. I have aligned mine for 12 years and it does have a slight pull. If you've done yours lately then you're way better off than me. But since you've got a lifetime anyway might as well have it done but if you can't wait till then (don't they base that on mileage when you can get another alignment?) like I said its not a big deal.

first of all I suggest you read through Izzard's links, this way you'll know what to ask for and you'll understand the terms they throw at you IF you end up dealing with somebody who actually knows what they are doing. I'm not sure if those links covers the difference between zeroing out and what this tech called smart weight technology which is not actually zeroing things out hence not as good. Maybe he was just trying to impress me and that term really does not exist.LOL!

I'll try to write something up this evening, if not I'll get it done by the weekend.

Or is there one already written up and I can just add/comment on it?

Oh before I forget, its also important that the tires are warmed up, driven at 45 mph for at least 4-5 miles,I think this is what the TSB says.

 

[1985taylor1925]

This is very interesting to me as Ive always had vibration problems as well. Thanks for the suggestion. I may give this a try

 

[Arv]

This is very interesting to me as Ive always had vibration problems as well. Thanks for the suggestion. I may give this a try

NP. Please let us know how it goes!
Thanks!

 

[Arv]

Therealtor1 here it is as promised.

I’m sure there are more detailed and better write ups out there somewhere but I will give it a try. Sorry didn't have time to look up more info and add links.

Make sure that there is nothing wrong with your suspension/steering. Visual check of components and while rig is jacked up and supported by jack stands have somebody push/pull on the tire at the 12 o clock and 6 positions and then 9 and 3 while you check for wear/movement of components.

Warm up tires to temp before taking to tire shop. Drive it around >45mph for at least 4-5 miles to prevent a flat spot on cold tire when parked too long and helps with tire uniformity.

Road force balance to check for wheel run off and tire uniformity. The machine will tell you if you need to rotate the tire on the wheel to compensate for uniformity problems with the tire

When buying new tires and they can't seem to balance it and they blame your wheels and the wheel run off is within tolerance then its most likely not the wheel. Its way easier to build a uniform wheel than a tire. See previous post about my tire brand experience.

Make sure they do not use the smart weight technology and have them zero out the balancing

Make sure they back cone and secure the wheel properly in front, there are many ways to do this, it does not have to be the haweka adaptor (though people swear by it) a solidly built generic finger plate with fixed fingers for our bolt pattern would do (not one of those adjustable ones), the shop I go to has one that you can secure your wheel to it with the lug nuts. My last balance was done without using any plate adapters, just back coning and securing the front with a suction like rubber thingy.

Use extended thread lug nuts!!!!! They look like regular acorn lugs with a short shank. I thought the 60 degree angle on reg acorns was enough to center the wheels but when I switched to ET lugs the vibration went away, the tires were not rebalanced at this time, just switched lug nuts.

Some wheels will not take ET lugs so this might be something to consider when selecting a wheel.

Torque wheels while rig is still in the air, I would have someone depress the brake pedal

Torque again after setting down

Torque again after a few days of driving.

For all - Let us know if this works for you!

And let us know if the tire shop tech did something diff that you think helped!

You asked if you can just change the lugs on the front, you can but if you feel vibration throughout the vehicle and not just the steering wheel then the rears are probably off too. One trick I learned is to wear slacks and see if the pant leg vibrates. If it does then your rears are off too.

 

[THEREALTOR1]

Great write up Arv. I'll have to come back and re-read this a few more hundred times. Thanks again for all the info.