Yet another 4Runner wheel balance problem...

[702_SR5]

My basic question: How do I determine if a stock rim is defective (out-of-round, whatever)?


Full story:

I have a 2018 SR5 4WD that I bought new in November '18.

I'm a fan of the BFG TA's after running them on my two Xterras. (I also had BFG MT's on my Wrangler Rubicon, never had trouble with those.) So I had a set of KO2's (LT) installed the day after I bought my SR5.

They were purchased and installed at one of several local Discount Tire locations. They are the OEM size, 265/70 R17, and installed on the stock rims.

Everything seemed okay at first, though I did at times feel a little vibration. I wasn't sure of the source though I felt it mostly right in the driver's seat...

A few months later I had the first rotation/balance. Immediately, I had a noticeable steering wheel shimmy at highway speeds.

Thus followed several attempts by different DT shops to sort this out. Including rebalancing, roadforcing, and force matching. The shimmy persisted.

At one point while all this was going on, I numbered the rims so I could keep an eye on things...

Eventually I ended up back at the DT where I bought the tires. They spent a few hours on the job, with me in the shop watching. Eventually they determined that one of the tires was out-of-round (OOR). But also stated they suspected the rim it was on is also OOR.

They replaced the tire under the certificate, but I didn't do anything right away about the wheel. It was the rim I had written #4 on. It ended up on the right rear.

Everything was okay for awhile. I had another rotation, and this brought rim #4 up to the left front. No problems, no return visits. The next rotation sent rim #4 to the left rear. No problems I can recall, no return visits.

Then it was rotation time again. #4 ended up on the left front. I left the DT shop and got on a road with a 55 mph speed limit. The steering wheel shimmy was so bad, it was frightening.

I immediately went back and this led to another saga of balancing, roadforcing, and force matching at two DT shops. The shimmy lessened, but persisted.

I took it to a Toyota dealer and explained what had been going on. All they did was rebalance and roadforce all four wheels. Then, without telling me, moved the wheels around, placing the #4 troublemaker in the back. I had them put the wheels back where they had been. The steering wheel shimmy may have improved slightly, but was still there.

I've returned to the local DT. They dismounted the tire from the #4 rim, and spun the naked rim. I looked at it from the side while it was spinning. And it sure looked to me as if the rim edge was going up and down slightly, suggesting to me the wheel is OOR. But they told me that's not a valid way to evaluate it, that the machine would tell them if it was OOR. :noidea:

They put it back together, and balanced/roadforced it while I watched. The balance was fine. The roadforce reading was 17, and the machine suggested it could get down to 16 if they force matched the tire/rim. I told them to just leave it.

Thoughts? I strongly suspect there's a problem with the rim. But how can that be verified? Other than by replacing it with a new rim? :help:

If I were going to replace the rim, I would probably do it when I buy new tires. These now have nearly 32K on them, and I typically replace my off-road tires early.

Also...perhaps it is time to move on from BFG to something else?

If you took the time to read all this, thank you! :bigok:

 

[08TxRunner]

Quick answer: go to Amazon, buy a dial indicator with a magnetic base, and Youtube how to use it. Dead simple. That will tell you whether you have a rim problem.

 

[RedSled]

Quick answer: go to Amazon, buy a dial indicator with a magnetic base, and Youtube how to use it. Dead simple. That will tell you whether you have a rim problem.

This, or borrow a rim from one of your buds and see how it works for you.

 

[rightyouareken]

This, or borrow a rim from one of your buds and see how it works for you.

Or even throw on the spare if you're still running stock size tires.

 

[08TxRunner]

I actually bought my indicator/base setup for this exact reason. A vibration that would not go away and I discovered that one of my aftermarket wheels was badly out of true.

 

[Fermn]

I say its probably the tires. I'm having a similar issue. My 4runner was driving perfect before lift and tires. After the tires were installed, I have a shimmy that I can't get rid of. Checked, balanced, rebalanced, road force balanced, everything checks out good. The problem is one of my rear tires because whenever I rotate them, the shimmy moves. Yet, they're all perfectly fine according to the machine. I'm switching out of KO2's after this set.

In the mean time, I'm just going to live with it and probably not rotate the tires. Not sure what I'm gonna do yet.. lol

 

[Deep_palancar]

Since you observed the work, did they use a lug adapter plate to mount the wheel?
I have one problem wheel that has been trouble since my '10 was new. If that one wheel is balanced with only a cone mount it will be perfect on the machine but will shake on the truck. See Toyota TSB SU002-96 (revised '12). I have to request that the adapter be used since most Techs are not aware of the TSB.

In my experience most Discount Tire places have an adapter plate of some brand. Even my local Wal-Mart has a lug adapter and one specific tech that knows how to use it.

In all of this marking and swapping I'm surprised that wheel #4 has not been swapped to Tire #something else. At least that should point to the problem following a tire or a wheel.

Once upon a time I had a set of tires that did not like being cross rotated. The woven belts would become directionally deformed. Michelin replaced them and said do not cross rotate if you ever run deflated.

 

[702_SR5]

Quick answer: go to Amazon, buy a dial indicator with a magnetic base, and Youtube how to use it. Dead simple. That will tell you whether you have a rim problem.

I see videos that describe using one to check rotors, hubs, and other things. But not a rim. I've never used such a tool and have no idea how I would check a rim with one!

Do you have a link to a page or video that demonstrates this?

 

[702_SR5]

Since you observed the work, did they use a lug adapter plate to mount the wheel?
I have one problem wheel that has been trouble since my '10 was new. If that one wheel is balanced with only a cone mount it will be perfect on the machine but will shake on the truck. See Toyota TSB SU002-96 (revised '12). I have to request that the adapter be used since most Techs are not aware of the TSB.

In my experience most Discount Tire places have an adapter plate of some brand. Even my local Wal-Mart has a lug adapter and one specific tech that knows how to use it.

In all of this marking and swapping I'm surprised that wheel #4 has not been swapped to Tire #something else. At least that should point to the problem following a tire or a wheel.

Once upon a time I had a set of tires that did not like being cross rotated. The woven belts would become directionally deformed. Michelin replaced them and said do not cross rotate if you ever run deflated.

I've seen the threads here talking about adapter plates, etc. But I'm not an authority on these things. It seemed like they used multiple pieces when clamping the rim to their machine. I don't know if that tells you anything.

As mentioned in the long version of the OP, the tire on that rim was replaced once, because supposedly the tire was OOR. And things were okay for awhile, but now I'm again having trouble. Suggesting to me the rim is defective and is screwing up the tire.

 

[702_SR5]

This, or borrow a rim from one of your buds and see how it works for you.

Or even throw on the spare if you're still running stock size tires.

Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has a 4Runner with the same stock rims.

And my spare is a Bridgestone tire on a steel rim. Are you saying to take the tire off the suspect rim, mount it on the steel rim, mount the assembly on the front, and then test drive the vehicle that way?

 

[rightyouareken]

Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has a 4Runner with the same stock rims.

And my spare is a Bridgestone tire on a steel rim. Are you saying to take the tire off the suspect rim, mount it on the steel rim, mount the assembly on the front, and then test drive the vehicle that way?

No I mean take the wheel and tire you think are the issue off and put the space wheel and tire on to confirm it’s really that pair and not something else.


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[pableaux]

I rotated my Wildpeaks for the first time at 5k miles and instantly noticed a shimmy at highway speeds that I didn't have before. I have aftermarket wheels so they're lug centric. I took them off and put them back on again as centered as possible. Looks like my issue has been solved. I haven't been able to drive it much yet but the one test run I did seemed a lot better.

 

[Hans Moleman]

They key number is under 15 lbs of road force to be vibration free. Even if your wheel/tire assembly balances out perfectly after road force balancing, it will still cause vibrations if road force is over 15 lbs because of how sensitive 4Runners are. I figured this out after going through numerous balancing and sets of tires.

 

[CutthroatSlam]

They key number is under 15 lbs of road force to be vibration free. Even if your wheel/tire assembly balances out perfectly after road force balancing, it will still cause vibrations if road force is over 15 lbs because of how sensitive 4Runners are. I figured this out after going through numerous balancing and sets of tires.

I recently took the 2014 4Runner in for road force balancing. When the shop owner asked for the Make and Model, he grimaced and shook his head when I said Toyota.

 

[seatia]

Here are a couple of things to read.
Trade magazine
A Mounting and Balancing Act - Retail - Modern Tire Dealer

Dial indicator with pics
Measuring Wheel Runout

If you want to check the rim , the tire should be off and the rim mounted to the truck, slowly turn the rim and test for both runouts.
The hub/bearings could also be suspect.

I'm old school so I won't cross rotate any tires.
They only get moved from front to back or back to front same side.
In other words, they always rotate in the same direction.
These days the tire manufacturers say it doesn't matter, but on my vehicle it does, I don't cross rotate.

I also don't rotate tires unless I see some abnormal wear, usually the front tires show first.
It seems to me you are wasting a lot of time, energy and money by rotating your tires so much, but it's your call.
You may be spending more money with all this balancing stuff than you would by never rotating and just replacing the tires when needed, even if it may be a few thousand miles early.

 

[DougR]

I see videos that describe using one to check rotors, hubs, and other things. But not a rim. I've never used such a tool and have no idea how I would check a rim with one! Do you have a link to a page or video that demonstrates this?

See YouTube Start watching wheel lateral runout at 4:30. Tire radial and lateral runout is different, so start at the beginning of the video. Hub lateral runout starts at 7:00. See also detailed description of vibration type and source, wheel balance and driveline issues here Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum - View Single Post - Steering wheel vibration poll -- responses appreciated

Start by measuring tread depth at three locations across the face of each tire and various locations around the circumference (while avoiding the tread wear bars). Then measure tire radial and lateral runout. You're looking for one tire and wheel assembly that's worse than the others. When you have found it, then measure the wheel and hub runout to narrow down source of runout to either the tire, wheel or hub. It your case, the issue is most likely isolated to one tire. Record your measurements and post them here.

I've measured tire radial and lateral runout with and without a dial indicator by looking for the worst tire and wheel assembly, so comparative observations are needed. Drive vehicle to eliminate flat spots. Jack up all four corners so vehicle is off the ground. Lay a metal ruler or thin heavy bar on a heavy steady block and rotated tire, clamping ruler to block at point where it barely touches the tire at point of highest runout. Observe all four tires for lateral and radial runout. Observe tire radial runout at three locations across the face of the tire, inside shoulder, center and outside shoulder. I can easily see 1 mm runout by eye in favorable lighting conditions. With practice I've been able to estimate runout as low as 0.25 mm using feeler gauges. Mark two locations, (1) tire barely touches ruler and (2) maximum gap between tire and ruler, which equals runout. If you can't find one tire with obviously greater runout than the others start looking for other causes in the forum link.

To measure lateral runout on the wheels and hub, you'll need a dial indicator.

Max allowable tire runout is 3 mm (lateral and radial?). As little as 1 mm radial tire runout can produce wheel hop. Max allowable wheel runout is ???. Max allowable hub lateral runout is ???. Max allowable brake rotor runout is 0.05 mm (lateral).

 

[fishman]

2012 TE 180k miles stock size no lift.

These 5th gens are finicky about tires...

I had a similar horrible experience many miles back on a set of Firestone A/t.

Went to duratracs which were much improved but still not good enough as they rotations and balancing to often.

Then to Coopers at34s for 62k great miles. I just put another set on.

 

[702_SR5]

No I mean take the wheel and tire you think are the issue off and put the space wheel and tire on to confirm it’s really that pair and not something else.

The steering wheel shimmy only occurs when that particular wheel is on the front. As detailed in the OP, I'm at 32K miles and the wheels have been rotated a few times.

Though I'm not sure what's wrong with it, it seems certain that wheel is the problem. Or am I overlooking something?

 

[702_SR5]

The hub/bearings could also be suspect.

I'm old school so I won't cross rotate any tires.
They only get moved from front to back or back to front same side.
In other words, they always rotate in the same direction.
These days the tire manufacturers say it doesn't matter, but on my vehicle it does, I don't cross rotate.

I also don't rotate tires unless I see some abnormal wear, usually the front tires show first.
It seems to me you are wasting a lot of time, energy and money by rotating your tires so much, but it's your call.
You may be spending more money with all this balancing stuff than you would by never rotating and just replacing the tires when needed, even if it may be a few thousand miles early.

If the hub and/or bearings were the problem, wouldn't the steering wheel shimmy occur no matter which wheels were on the front? I'm not an expert on these things, so maybe I'm overlooking something.

I'm rotating at 6000-7000 miles, I don't think that's excessive. All the extra visits have been due to the steering wheel shimmy, when it occurs. How many miles do you usually go between rotations?

You see wear first on the front tires, on a vehicle that is usually rear-wheel drive?

BTW, I've not paid anything extra to DT for all this extra work. I bought the tires there so the rotation/balance and roadforcing has been provided at no cost. Even when it has been done multiple times. However, now that we're at this point, they don't seem to have any answers.

As for rotation patterns, that's another subject. I've found that different DT shops don't follow the same patterns.

 

[702_SR5]

See also detailed description of vibration type and source, wheel balance and driveline issues here Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum - View Single Post - Steering wheel vibration poll -- responses appreciated

"TLR—Tire/Wheel Lateral runout: Vehicle speed
sensitive, mechanical vibration. The runout will not
cause vibration below 50 - 55 mph (80 - 88 km/h). Excessive
lateral runout will also cause front-end
shimmy."

This sounds like my problem. Manifested in my case as steering wheel shimmy at 55-65 mph. This only occurs when one particular wheel (tire & rim) is on the front end.

Your testing technique sounds promising, but I don't own a floor jack or jackstands. And the auto skills center at Nellis AFB is inaccessible to me (due to the base's Covid-related access restrictions). If I could get out there, I could put the vehicle on a lift.

I think tomorrow morning I'll look for a tire or other shop that will check it for me (while I watch like a hawk). Interesting that DT never suggested doing such a thing. Even though it might give them the chance to sell me a new rim.