Ethanol Warnings

[RL Lemke]

Ed Wallace just reported that there is a lot to worry about when burning even a 10% ethanol blend in our 4Runners (KLIF radio Dallas).

1- Ethanol eats fiberglass gas tanks. Gas stations which have a fiberglass fuel tank installed before the early 1990s will dissolve when subjected to ethanol. The dissolved fiberglass gel will get into your gas tank and destroy your engine. Good luck getting any warranty to cover this. I remember seeing a lot of old steel station fuel tanks being removed and replaced with fiberglass tanks over the last few decades.

2- Ethanol is kept in separate tanks at the fuel distributor, because of its corrosive nature. Then, the ethanol is added to the tanker truck in a separate fill operation. There is now a warning out which states that merely driving this gas/ethanol mix down the road doesn't effectively mix it. So, some gas stations are getting a nearly pure fill of ethanol. The American Petroleum Institute has issued this warning. Good luck getting any warranty to fix your engine when this blast of ethanol hits it.

3- Ford & GM have issued warnings that if a NON-E85 engine is touched with the 85% ethanol blend, it will be ruined and NOT covered by their warranty.

Thank-you Federal Government, for this ethanol mandate.

California Air Review Board is supposed to have asked the EPA to allow the use of pure gasoline. Their conclusion is that new gasoline refining yields a perfectly clean fuel which doesn't require an oxygenator, like ethanol. The EPA has told every state that ethanol must be blended with gasoline.

Again, thank-you Federal Government for this ethanol mandate. The same folks that required MTBE which has polluted the groundwater of many parts of America. Apparently, the EPA really has the best of intentions so their many failures should be forgiven.

 

[AlexJet]

Hmmm.... So if I filled up at the gas station and will lock my engine, it's not a warranty and nobody will pay for, not Toyota and not a gas station.
Thanks...It looks like we have to pay from our pocket for someone who wants to get more money for his business.

 

[RL Lemke]

Well, if you fill at a station with a fiberglass fuel tank, installed before the switch to ethanol safe tanks in the mid-90s, you run the risk of a tankfull of fiberglass gel. Kinda like winning the lottery, in reverse.

Hmmm.... So if I filled up at the gas station and will lock my engine, it's not a warranty and nobody will pay for, not Toyota and not a gas station.
Thanks...It looks like we have to pay from our pocket for someone who wants to get more money for his business.

 

[RL Lemke]

Many parts of the midwest have been running an ethanol blend for some time. Those areas have resolved their issues already. The rest of the US is just starting to see ethanol added to gasoline. Here in Dallas, dealers are seeing a huge increase of fuel filter problems, and stalled cars. I'm sure these issues will get worked-out over time.

My issue is that I want these problems to be worked-out by others. NOT ME. I don't think Toyota specified fuel pumps and gaskets suitable to high levels of ethanol in 2004. I question whether the new Toyotas are any better suited to a large dose of ethanol, coming from a poorly mixed ethanol blend dumped into local gas station fuel tank.

 

[Uneek]

GREAT! Just the news we need to ruin our trucks. But I'm glad you posted the information RL. Thanks for the heads up. I think I'll stick to filling up at Costco, since I know their stations haven't been around longer than 2000.

Hopefully with arm twisting and not following directions, we'll get our pure mix of gasoline and save CA owners' engines and ease their minds. CA allowed medicinal marijuana and same sex marriages. (I don't intend to offend anyone or start a debate about what CA did, but just merely illustrating CA's defiance.)

 

[ddd269]

When you mean contaminant, do you mean like dissolved fiberglass resin (and fiber)? If this was the case, wouldn't the fuel filter catch it, or is it so thin that it would flow through?

I would think if it's big/thick enough to clog the filter, then it's ok (at least it's not something else). I rather have the car stop because the fuel filter got clogged, than something more serious. If it's thin enough to flow through, I don't think it would cause much problem.

What do you think guys?

On a side note...

I used to run a car wash/gas station when I was in my early 20s and used to sell Unocal (Union 76) gas. In one shipment they sent a contaminated load of premium gas. The gas was delivered overnight when we were closed, so we started selling it in the morning. Most of our customers were gas + carwash customers, so they gassed up and washed. By the time the cars came out of the car wash conveyor, the cars would not start. I didn't catch on to what was going on until about the 5th car. It was a sticky situation for me.

When we sent the cars to an auto shop across the street, they opened the gas tanks and it was full of gelly like clumps mixed with fuel.

Fortunately this cocktail didn't get past the fuel filter and the bill was paid by Unocal. The customers were cool about it, which surprised me. I would have been mad as hell! Then again, they were all regular customers and had good relationship with us.

I'm telling you about this because, if there was a problem with fuel, more than likely, the gas station/gas company would pay for the damage.

Keep your receipts!

Have a great weekend.

 

[AlexJet]

... if there was a problem with fuel, more than likely, the gas station/gas company would pay for the damage...

You still have to prove that gas from this station cause it.

 

[pipspeak]

Ford & GM have issued warnings that if a NON-E85 engine is touched with the 85% ethanol blend, it will be ruined and NOT covered by their warranty.

I don't see this as at all unreasonable... non-E85 engines are not designed for 85% ethanol fuel. It would be like putting diesel in a gasoline engine, and Ford and GM would not cover any damage in that situation either. There's no insuring against stupidity.

Overall the ethanol issue smacks of scare-mongering to me -- something the US media just loves to do to boost its ratings. In this lawsuit-happy nation I would expect any real issues with ethanol blends would have hits the courts by now as some sort of class-action suit against the oil companies. And ethanol has been used in some states for many years.

 

[sketch1]

I have a huge beef with ethanol fuel....or I should say the way we (the U.S.) are handling it. I think it is a great idea, renewable fuel source, clean burning, etc. However we are using Corn for our ethanol which is about the most inefficient way to produce ethanol. Sugar Cane is the most effecient, and least polluting...however we grow Corn here and not Sugar Cane, so why would we want to support another country and buy their sugar cane? Anyway it just irrirates me, Ethanol should be used to make a cleaner world, yet we are using it to make money for America. I know I am going to get attacked and told that there are reasons for doing this other than what I have said, but to be honest I don't care. Everyone is entitiled to their own opinion and that is mine... Corn Ethanol is a step in the right direction, but for the wrong reasons.

 

[pipspeak]

I have a huge beef with ethanol fuel....or I should say the way we (the U.S.) are handling it. I think it is a great idea, renewable fuel source, clean burning, etc. However we are using Corn for our ethanol which is about the most inefficient way to produce ethanol.

I agree... although I thought the problem with using corn is less to do with whether or not the process is efficient and more to do with the amount of transport required to get the corn from some field in Iowa to the production plants, and then the ethanol from the plants to the refineries.

In other words, more noxious/greenhouse gases are emitted in producing and transporting the corn/ethanol than are saved by using it as a gas additive.

Brazil is the model for ethanol production and use IMO. It is decades ahead of the U.S. and as a result is far less dependent on "foreign oil".

 

[AlexJet]

...Ford & GM have issued warnings that if a NON-E85 engine is touched with the 85% ethanol blend, it will be ruined and NOT covered by their warranty...

Would it be better to buy higher octane gas to make sure that less ethanol coming to your engine? Does it make any difference if I use 87 or 89, or even 91 octane gas? Does it means that 89 with ethanol will have less damage to the engine then 87 with ethanol or its going to be the same effect?
I found that SUNOCO in Canada sells 10% ethanol fuel.

 

[boston_kevin]

Most stations in colder climates have been running either MBTE or 10% ethanol for at least 20 years now... The only areas that may be affected would be warmer climate areas. I encountered another issue years ago with my Jeep tho (and could have encountered this with the 4Runner had I had the vehicle then). I filled up at a no-name station because the gas was less expensive. After a single tank, I accumulated so much rust debris in my filter that gas could not flow on demand. As it turned out, the tanks at the station were steel (been around for many years), but they just had a tanker fill up their underground tanks which stirred up the debris on the bottom of the tanks. Had I waited another day, I would not have had the problem. I tried to force the gas station to pay for the damages, but they wanted 100% proof that the gas came from their station with some testing (paid for by me)... Even with the testing, I was not 100% empty so the testing showed that the gas was not all theirs and they would not pay...

My lesson I learned - if I see a tanker at the station, find another station - preferrably not the same brand.

 

[Sac State]

Most stations in colder climates have been running either MBTE or 10% ethanol for at least 20 years now... The only areas that may be affected would be warmer climate areas. I encountered another issue years ago with my Jeep tho (and could have encountered this with the 4Runner had I had the vehicle then). I filled up at a no-name station because the gas was less expensive. After a single tank, I accumulated so much rust debris in my filter that gas could not flow on demand. As it turned out, the tanks at the station were steel (been around for many years), but they just had a tanker fill up their underground tanks which stirred up the debris on the bottom of the tanks. Had I waited another day, I would not have had the problem. I tried to force the gas station to pay for the damages, but they wanted 100% proof that the gas came from their station with some testing (paid for by me)... Even with the testing, I was not 100% empty so the testing showed that the gas was not all theirs and they would not pay...

My lesson I learned - if I see a tanker at the station, find another station - preferrably not the same brand.

Excellent point, if you see a tanker unloading fuel go to another station.

Yesterday it was pouring rain, I was at a CITGO station and the tanker pulled up and opened the three fuel covers for the gas tanks at the station. I sat there amazed that the rain was pouring and pooling by the fuel covers. No telling how much water drained into the tanks before the driver had the hose hooked up dropping fuel. I am sure there is a filter to remove water from an underground tank, but what if I was the first to dispense this new fuel before the water evaporated? If it evaporated???

I never buy no-name brand gas. And I have never run less than 89 octane.

 

[ddd269]

The pickup tube in a gas tank sit, depending on diff tanks, about 6~8" off the bottom. I've never seen this, but that's what I hear. It would be hard to see this unless it's being installed. lol

So, basically, if there were any contaminants, including water, it would sink to the bottom and no problem. The gas stations have a water testing paste, also, to test if there is water contamination. The paste is applied on a fuel measuring stick and it turns red, if it contacts water. How often they test... No idea.

You are correct, though, about not going to a gas station when it's being filled. I know the pump system has filters and stuff, but I rather not take a chance.

Even if you do, I guess we have our own trusty fuel filters. Change them often!

 

[sketch1]

Just curious, if a pickup tube sits 6-8 inches from the bottom, wouldnt that leave a lot of excess gas in the tank that would just sit because the tube doesn't reach it?

 

[ddd269]

Just curious, if a pickup tube sits 6-8 inches from the bottom, wouldnt that leave a lot of excess gas in the tank that would just sit because the tube doesn't reach it?

Yes. This must be done to prevent sucking up debris and water etc. A buffer gas (+ debris/contaminant). lol

Contamination is unavoidable, I guess.

With all the tanker fill-ups a gas station gets, with different drivers, there is a likely chance that things won't be done with the "utmost vigilance". A good example is what SacState mentioned above.

If you think about all the factors, we would be living in a world of paranoia and drive ourselves crazy. Just pretend to be naive and put whatever.

 

[sketch1]

But 6 inches off the bottom, thats a lot of unused gas....and when I fill up and I am pretty much on E I put in almost 25 gallons...so how does that work out...not doubting you, just curious, does that mean that I have a 25 gallon tank from 6 inches up, or does the entire tank hold 25 gallons?

 

[Expat]

Just curious, if a pickup tube sits 6-8 inches from the bottom, wouldnt that leave a lot of excess gas in the tank that would just sit because the tube doesn't reach it?

Isn't he talking about the gas tank at the gas station, not the one in your car?

 

[ddd269]

But 6 inches off the bottom, thats a lot of unused gas....and when I fill up and I am pretty much on E I put in almost 25 gallons...so how does that work out...not doubting you, just curious, does that mean that I have a 25 gallon tank from 6 inches up, or does the entire tank hold 25 gallons?

lol no... Not "your" gas tank. We are talking about the gas station gas tank. The big thing underground.

Although, I don't know where the pickup point is on a 4runner gas tank. Is it on the bottom?

 

[schwalmy]

hey alex jet buddy
are you saying that all sunoco stations are running 10% ?
or just a few so far?
thanks
schwalmy