Everything you always wanted to know about LBJ bolts

[JZiggy]

Any thoughts on the stainless ARP bolts? 763-1004 in particular...

Curious what the difference is between the stainless 763-1004 versus the 663-1004/673-1004.

I bought the stainless 763-1004 before I read this thread... wondering if I should return them.

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You actually got a better option since the black ARP's are black oxide and folks have shown that they start rusting before too long.

The ARP stainless is still super strong. I got stainless studs from ARP for my LBJ install. I used the ARP lube and torqued to 54 ft-lb which is ARP's spec for that size fastener. I'd suggest doing some more research to determine what spec would be appropriate.

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3837283-post2.html

 

[Robb235]

You actually got a better option since the black ARP's are black oxide and folks have shown that they start rusting before too long.

The ARP stainless is still super strong. I got stainless studs from ARP for my LBJ install. I used the ARP lube and torqued to 54 ft-lb which is ARP's spec for that size fastener. I'd suggest doing some more research to determine what spec would be appropriate.

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3837283-post2.html

I'm thinking I'll go with the torque spec recommended in this thread for the black oxide bolts; around 65-70 ft-lbs.

 

[JZiggy]

I'm thinking I'll go with the torque spec recommended in this thread for the black oxide bolts; around 65-70 ft-lbs.

It's up to you of course, but do consider that the torque spec for the black oxide bolts is set for a higher strength fastener. The ARP SS is just a touch higher strength than OEM, and it doesn't have the fancy low-CoF coating of the new black OEM bolts. I might use the spec for the standard OEM flange bolts...

 

[Spiker Engineering]

I have a set of the ARP stainless bolts on hand, as well as their lube, which I plan to test soon to get the torque-preload relationship, as well as measure degradation with repeated cycling. It'll take me a while to get to that though (life gets in the way of fun projects sometimes).

If you want to install the stainless bolts before that data comes in, I probably would limit the torque to 50-60 ft lbs if installing dry, without lube. My thinking is that if they recommend 54 ft-lbs with their lube, then you'll be getting a lot less preload without the lube, so not much risk of overloading the bolt unless you start going well above 54 ft-lbs.

 

[Robb235]

I have a set of the ARP stainless bolts on hand, as well as their lube, which I plan to test soon to get the torque-preload relationship, as well as measure degradation with repeated cycling. It'll take me a while to get to that though (life gets in the way of fun projects sometimes).

If you want to install the stainless bolts before that data comes in, I probably would limit the torque to 50-60 ft lbs if installing dry, without lube. My thinking is that if they recommend 54 ft-lbs with their lube, then you'll be getting a lot less preload without the lube, so not much risk of overloading the bolt unless you start going well above 54 ft-lbs.

Ok, so I’ll plan on 60 ft-lbs with the washer and blue thread locker. Appreciate the feedback.

 

[thezentree]

Does anyone have data that says loctite is an effective thread lubricant? I can't remember where, but I recently watched a video that demonstrated that bolts torqued to the same spec with and without loctite reached effectively the same clamp load, but antiseize added like 30% or something more clamp load.

 

[GhostRing]

Does anyone have data that says loctite is an effective thread lubricant? I can't remember where, but I recently watched a video that demonstrated that bolts torqued to the same spec with and without loctite reached effectively the same clamp load, but antiseize added like 30% or something more clamp load.

Pretty sure that was a Torque Test Channel video (great channel btw!)
The anti-seize #s were shocking indeed. Ol' blue seems to be ok though...

 

[thezentree]

Pretty sure that was a Torque Test Channel video (great channel btw!)
The anti-seize #s were shocking indeed. Ol' blue seems to be ok though...

That sounds right.

 

[Spiker Engineering]

Loctite will affect the preload during the initial installation, but not by much. The bigger issue is that when you reuse a bolted joint that was previously assembled with loctite, the preload will be lower than expected, because the loctite remnants will result in higher friction and thus less preload per ft-lb of torque, unless you really clean the bolt and the female threads.

 

[brokedownwallet]

This is all awesome, reading through this has been amazing to follow along the work you put in and it's great to see you still updating it.

 

[thezentree]

Loctite will affect the preload during the initial installation, but not by much. The bigger issue is that when you reuse a bolted joint that was previously assembled with loctite, the preload will be lower than expected, because the loctite remnants will result in higher friction and thus less preload per ft-lb of torque, unless you really clean the bolt and the female threads.

Interesting, but that makes sense. Have you done any work to quantify it? That seems like there are so many variables that it would be impossible to accurately predict.

 

[Spiker Engineering]

Interesting, but that makes sense. Have you done any work to quantify it? That seems like there are so many variables that it would be impossible to accurately predict.

I started looking at the effect of loctite, but it became a bit of a nightmare. To digress a bit, I drilled and tapped a number of holes in a fairly hard stainless steel bar, going through several drills and taps in the process. Once I saw that the loctite changed the friction characteristics when reused, I realized that I would need to drill/tap a bunch of new holes to quantify the effect. I decided against going down that rabbit hole.

The reality is that the loctite effect would be largely driven by how well one cleans the threads when reusing the bolts (especially the female threads in the knuckle), and I didn't want to get into a science project to assess that.

 

[thezentree]

How clean were the threads when it was originally installed? How much loctite was initially applied? What were the environmental conditions? How long was the loctite left in place?

Yeah, I get that.

Thanks for going down the rabbit holes you do.

 

[2TH4IST]

Normally I run a thread chaser/cleaner to clean out thread locker, wash out w/brake cleaner and blow dry. If need be a bore brush on a drill w/acetone always works, unless it's in a hard to reach location.

I wonder how different is locktite to arp lube.

 

[JZiggy]

Soak fasteners in rubbing alcohol, follow by brass brush. Works well for me

 

[ITWrencher]

Loctite will affect the preload during the initial installation, but not by much. The bigger issue is that when you reuse a bolted joint that was previously assembled with loctite, the preload will be lower than expected, because the loctite remnants will result in higher friction and thus less preload per ft-lb of torque, unless you really clean the bolt and the female threads.

That is why I ALWAYS clean Loctited bolts and the holes if I can get to them before re-installing/re-using hardware. I pretty much do that with all hardware if I am re-using it. Always makes things go smoother and it only takes a few minutes.

 

[dougw181]

New to the forum and getting ready to do JBJ's on my 96' and was curious about new bolts. Thank you for doing all of the testing and helping me make an educated decision with the purchase of new bolts. Thanks again!