failing in the winter

[corrado]

So I need to take some more action to ensure safe winter performance. before last winter I bought some new goodyear wrangler silent armor tires, as they were branded with the mountain/snowflake symbol for winter performance and had the reputation as being the best winter performance for an all season AT tire. At this point I feel like I can safely say these tires suck in the snow/ice. I wasn't expecting dedicated snow tire traction, but I expected them to be way better then the OEM duelers, which they are not. This past weekend in VT (where there is not much snow) my truck got stuck in a parallel parking spot. there was no fresh snow, just a couple of inches of slushy ice. in 4hi, there was some wheel spin and power cut out. truck didn't move, which was no big deal as i figured locking the diff would do it. wrong. locked the diff and got some more wheel spin, but it still couldn't get out of the spot. It also felt like there were still some electronic limitations, which i thought would be gone w/ center diff locked. 4LO couldn't even get me out of this spot. it was very embarrassing in such a sophisticated SUV w/ what I thought would be more than adequate rubber. Then on my way out of the resort I absolutely could not stop the truck going downhill. ABS kicks in way too early and refuses to just let me skid a bit in order to stop on a steep hill. luckily the cars in front of me never came to a complete stop or i would have been forced to take my truck off the road to avoid them.

So I wanted to avoid having 2 sets of wheels for this truck but i guess i will have to bite the bullet and get a set of dedicated snows. Also going to have to find that thread on defeating all the electronic nannies because this truck feels downright scary now.

Am i the only one surprised with such bad performance from the truck and tires?

 

[sonerick]

There are some winter conditions where my truck will slip and slide, but it's still better than any of my previous vehicles and (in my opinion) better than 99% of the cars on the road today.

The VSC off mod and dedicated snows or chains should help immensely though.

 

[corrado]

yea i know certain conditions are worse than others for this truck but it seemed a lot better with my 40k old oem tires than these new wrangler SA's, which has me a little pissed. Obviously, un-tracked fresh snow is not as demanding on the truck/tires as the icy stuff but I still expect it to move. I bought this truck because I was very high on my audi's quattro system and the T4r uses the same Torsen center diff. Unfortunately the 4r does not have close to the same traction no matter how i configure the 4wd system, which is disappointing.

 

[Druss]

So I need to take some more action to ensure safe winter performance. before last winter I bought some new goodyear wrangler silent armor tires, as they were branded with the mountain/snowflake symbol for winter performance and had the reputation as being the best winter performance for an all season AT tire. At this point I feel like I can safely say these tires suck in the snow/ice. I wasn't expecting dedicated snow tire traction, but I expected them to be way better then the OEM duelers, which they are not. This past weekend in VT (where there is not much snow) my truck got stuck in a parallel parking spot. there was no fresh snow, just a couple of inches of slushy ice. in 4hi, there was some wheel spin and power cut out. truck didn't move, which was no big deal as i figured locking the diff would do it. wrong. locked the diff and got some more wheel spin, but it still couldn't get out of the spot. It also felt like there were still some electronic limitations, which i thought would be gone w/ center diff locked. 4LO couldn't even get me out of this spot. it was very embarrassing in such a sophisticated SUV w/ what I thought would be more than adequate rubber. Then on my way out of the resort I absolutely could not stop the truck going downhill. ABS kicks in way too early and refuses to just let me skid a bit in order to stop on a steep hill. luckily the cars in front of me never came to a complete stop or i would have been forced to take my truck off the road to avoid them.

So I wanted to avoid having 2 sets of wheels for this truck but i guess i will have to bite the bullet and get a set of dedicated snows. Also going to have to find that thread on defeating all the electronic nannies because this truck feels downright scary now.

Am i the only one surprised with such bad performance from the truck and tires?

I would have thought if this can be done from a park spot in a 4th gen then you should of had no problem especially in diff lock even with half good any tires.
4th Gen Toyota 4Runner in Snow - YouTube

When you say "electronic limitations" what are you describing?

 

[d2huffman]

Locking the center diff should elim the power drain - it does on mine. You will still have braking for traction control - a good thing. I just carry chains for those real strange/icy conditions. Only takes a couple minutes to throw on and unless you are constantly driving on ice with hill are cheapest bet. I like to use trany for breaking going down hills when slick. While there are definitly better tires, like someone before said, t4r still one of best.

 

[MrEMan]

At this point I feel like I can safely say these tires suck in the snow/ice.

I don't know how much ice you were dealing with, but I've been running Wrangler SA's for several years now and this isn't my experience at all ... :shrug:

 

[corrado]

yea, obviously these tires are not performing up to my standards and i put most of the blame on them. i do love the truck, and have done some impressive things in snow but i think this icy parking spot was just too much for the tires/trac control. I really felt like i could have just throttled out of it if the truck would have let me.. i may just chalk this one up to a fluke and keep an eye on things but chains may not be a bad idea. got a link for the ones you use?

 

[missslucrew]

Both my husband and I have Bridgestone Revo II tires (one set light and one heavy truck models) They are amazing! Anyone else try these? We dont have snow much in Cali...but they worked well in the mountains last winter in snow.

 

[YotaDriver]

Both my husband and I have Bridgestone Revo II tires (one set light and one heavy truck models) They are amazing! Anyone else try these? We dont have snow much in Cali...but they worked well in the mountains last winter in snow.

I run Revo II's on my truck and they've been incredible in snow so far. Two winters ago with my 3rd gen 4Runner I pulled a Yukon out of a nose-down parking spot using my tow rope and this year I've already towed a 12'x6' U-Haul trailer through a blizzard - literally - including over a mountain pass and up some steep, windy roads. I'm happy with these tires to say the least.

To the OP, obviously I wasn't there so I'm not sure how bad this parking situation was, but a lot of times you need to rock a vehicle back and forth - regardless of awd/4wd - until you can build some momentum to defeat slick surfaces like ice. Also, in terms of going down a hill: if you were unable to stop without the abs kicking in then it sounds like you may have been going too fast for the conditions. I don't think there are many conditions where a sliding tire will provide more stopping power than a rotating one, so the abs was probably doing more good than harm there.

 

[corrado]

thanks for the input. i actually regret not getting the revo's now. i think their tread design looks better for snow with more sipes and small tread blocks. i just put a lot of stake into the whole "severe snow rated" mountain/snowflake business. live and learn.

the spot really didn't look that bad, 1 rear wheel dug itself down a little but 3 were on pretty solid ground w/ some ice. walking to the car was slick, but nothing crazy. I did rock the truck a bunch. it was pointed uphill so i obviously wanted to pull out forward like most people do exiting spots. it just wouldnt go up that hill. barely went forward enough to give me space to back out of the spot and down the hill.

as for going down, there were 4 vehicles in front of me and it was snowing. everybody was going very slow, including me. they all seemed to be in total control and just being properly cautious while i was standing on the brakes trying to get my truck to just stop so i could give them some space and proceed slowly. it absolutely would not stop, just kept activating abs and struggling to slow down. the abs definitely allowed me to steer through the whole ordeal, which is nice but i really would have preferred to just stop/slow down. I disagree about skidding tire vs. rotating though. the skidding tire should always provide more friction and stopping force than a rotating one. plus, snow builds up in front of a skidding tire which helps it stop. the only thing a skid can't to is steer (but a skilled driver can negotiate the skid and pump when more steering is needed and lock when more stopping is needed). its been proven that abs increases stopping distances in snow. it is just considered "safer" because it gives way more control while stopping and 95% of the drivers wouldn't know how to steer/pump in a panic stop to enable them to control a skid.

its briefly explained here: Winter Tech - Why Electronic Drivers Aids and AWD/4WD Systems Aren't Enough (Winter)

 

[TSO]

Winter tires are the BOMB. I just installed a set on mine today - Hankook I-Pike RW11 275/65/17. When I bought the truck, it came with a fresh set of General Grabber AW's, which is a decent 3-season tire, but too stiff & not enough siping for winter conditions. We put a set of the Hankook I-Pike's on my wife's Cr-V last year, which is also AWD... and the tires made a WORLD of a difference. It's definitely worth having 2 sets around (Winter/Summer) and as long as you change them out, you should have 2 sets of tires that will last a long time.

FYI - Winter tires have a softer compound, and more/finer sipes... because of this, driving them in warm conditions will cause premature wear. They'll give you great traction in dry conditions, but you'll just chew through them much faster.

 

[MikeInNH]

I just bought some Cooper AT3's. Haven't seen much snow yet in NH..but the little snow I've seen..they performed EXCELLENT. Driving on dry pavement is quiet and smooth..and their wet driving is right up there with the best tires I've ever owned. The equivalent Michelins were about $50 more EACH.

 

[d2huffman]

yea, obviously these tires are not performing up to my standards and i put most of the blame on them. i do love the truck, and have done some impressive things in snow but i think this icy parking spot was just too much for the tires/trac control. I really felt like i could have just throttled out of it if the truck would have let me.. i may just chalk this one up to a fluke and keep an eye on things but chains may not be a bad idea. got a link for the ones you use?

The chains that I use are Laclede snow chains - Alpine Sport. I got them from the dealer because I wanted assurance that they would work on the front also and they do. The inner cable has a large enough diameter to avoid clearance issue.

 

[scottm]

You really don't want to buy another set of tires, and you don't want to drive with chains all the time. I had a set of Cooper Discoverer S/T on one of my Land Cruisers, had them siped at Discount Tire when new, they did well in snow and ice. Similar tire to yours it looks like. My boss also had a set on his truck, hated them in the Winter, big difference without the extra siping. I hauled a construction trailer 100+ miles every day in the Winter in Michigan, was very happy with the Winter traction after siping. I think it's around $10/tire...? I didn't sipe all the way to the edges, that can lead to losing chunks of tread when off-road. I'm surprised those tires have a Winter rating, they don't look like great tires for ice.

I just put Nokian WRG2 on my 4R, so far it's done great in the slush and ice, I'm impressed.

 

[TSO]

You really don't want to buy another set of tires, and you don't want to drive with chains all the time. I had a set of Cooper Discoverer S/T on one of my Land Cruisers, had them siped at Discount Tire when new, they did well in snow and ice. Similar tire to yours it looks like. My boss also had a set on his truck, hated them in the Winter, big difference without the extra siping. I hauled a construction trailer 100+ miles every day in the Winter in Michigan, was very happy with the Winter traction after siping. I think it's around $10/tire...? I didn't sipe all the way to the edges, that can lead to losing chunks of tread when off-road. I'm surprised those tires have a Winter rating, they don't look like great tires for ice.

I just put Nokian WRG2 on my 4R, so far it's done great in the slush and ice, I'm impressed.

I had the same set of Coopers on a previous vehicle. They're a good All-Season tire, and not terrible in winter. HOWEVER, after getting these Hankooks on my wife's Cr-V (my first ever dedicated winter tire) I can easily say that the "All-Season" tire segment doesn't even belong in the same ZIP code as a dedicated winter tire when it comes to snow/ice. I've known guys that put them on FWD cars, and drove through stuff most 4x4's with A/S tires would have trouble with. No joke.

 

[scottm]

I had the same set of Coopers on a previous vehicle. They're a good All-Season tire, and not terrible in winter. HOWEVER, after getting these Hankooks on my wife's Cr-V (my first ever dedicated winter tire) I can easily say that the "All-Season" tire segment doesn't even belong in the same ZIP code as a dedicated winter tire when it comes to snow/ice. I've known guys that put them on FWD cars, and drove through stuff most 4x4's with A/S tires would have trouble with. No joke.

I've had a few dedicated Winter tires, they are significantly better than all-seasons. But I keep hoping to find that magic tire that can do it all. My all-weather Nokians are better on ice than my Blizzaks were when they were worn past the initial layer, so far very impressive. I might pay in faster wear, but I'm willing to pay a little more to have excellent performance without the extra wheels and tires.

I'm running Continental Extremecontacts on my son's Subaru, there are several all-seasons that push the winter traction a bit more. Better materials, better tread designs, tires keep improving.

 

[d2huffman]

I'm running Continental Extremecontacts on my son's Subaru, there are several all-seasons that push the winter traction a bit more. Better materials, better tread designs, tires keep improving.[/QUOTE]

I doubt that magical tire is ever going to come out. If you look at the tread pattern of the dedicated winter tires with the soft rubber, they have a very tight pattern to use the rubber compound and "cracks" to grab on ice - what they are really good at. That type of pattern will not work for off road conditions (mud, rocks or deeper snow, etc) You need a harder rubber and open tread on a real 4x4.

 

[4Beast]

I have been running the GYSAs for two winters now (if you call this winter) and while i have not been pee-my-pants excited with their performance I do trust them and have had pretty good success with them. Frankly i was much, much more confident in my Subaru with dedicated snow tires (Dunlop Graspics or Bridgestone Blizzaks) in pretty much all winter conditions until it got over 2 feet deep. I think if I lived any farther into snow country i would run two sets of tires, and A/T for summer and a set of real snows for winter, but for now as long as I have something that will make it up my sister's luge run of a driveway in VT a few times a winter, I'm fine...

 

[corrado]

I hear you, my audi with snow tires was unstoppable in anything less than 3 feet of heavy fresh snow. Obviously, its comparing apples to oranges since the audi had snow tires and I also feel the lower center of gravity and less weight help immensely. The same characteristics that make the audi sport sedan corner harder and grip better on dry roads, helps it in the winter as well. The problem with that car was that the low undercarriage took an absolute beating in deep snow/ice conditions and that high performance suspension didn't like the crater sized potholes associated with winter in the NE. i literally got control arm'd and wheel bearing'd to death w/ repairs on that thing. hence the move to the 4runner, which i knew would not "dig in" as well, especially w/o dedicated snows, but figured would still be acceptable with the best all seasons i could get.

I never even know "aftermarket" siping was an option, scottm or else i definitely would have given that a try. There have been some good suggestions and experiences in here, thanks a lot!

 

[Bahnstoermer]

BFG ATs are the only tires a truck should ever have. That'll solve your problem lickedy split Oh, and I got 99k miles out of one set on my last SUV, a Montero Sport 4WD. Drove through snow up to bumpers with impunity and on multiple all-day saturdays pulling idiots with FWD econocars and 2WD Blazers and pickups out of 2' of snow... kinda fun in a way.