Finally ready to tackle my sound system install!!

[theesotericone]

[MENTION=48234]stir_fry_boy[/MENTION]
Where did you buy adapters to put 6.5 kappas in rear doors?

I put 6.5 inch Concepts in my rear doors last month. You have to do some trimming of the inner door panel but nothing that is visible once it's reinstalled. For "adapters" I used 1/4" all thread couplings. There 7/8" long which is the exact size I needed to have the door panel go back on and the windows not hit the back of the speakers.

After trimming the door and taking some measurements I used the couplings and some regular 1 1/2" screws to drill into the sheet metal. I put some silicon in the coupling to prevent the screws from being able to back out as well. I still need to do some sound deadener on the doors themselves so next time I have it apart I'll grab some pictures.

 

[Scramble]

After years of fiddling with my stereo and going through several sets of amps, speakers, subs etc, here is what I've found that makes the biggest difference in sound quality:

1) High volt pre-out head unit. At least 4V.
2) Good wiring - oxygen free copper cables (4 AWG at minimum).
3) For a sub - High current AGM battery as close as possible to the sub amp. I have a Kinetic, 600W, it was ?$35. 1 Farad capacitors are worthless. The high current batteries are 100 Farad. A battery will really clean up the bass.
4) As others have mentioned, Class AB amp for speakers. A high quality Class D will work fine, AB is better but more power hungry. Both my JL amps are AB and are the best amps JL makes. I had a Infinity Kappa 4 amp and it had really good sound for a Class D.
5) Matching components and amps. For example, if you get an Amp with 25W RMS at 2 Ohms, and your speakers are 50W RMS at 2 Ohms, it's going to sound muddy and unclean. Best to get an amp with RMS power at the resistance of your speakers way over what is required. Just have to make sure that your amp gains are not set too high. Gains are POWER not volume.
6) Obtaining a tuned box for your sub. Subs do not sound good in any box. You need to find what Hz the manufacturer recommends, and find a box to match. Also you need to match the volume. You can't put any 2 subs into the smallest box you can buy.

As far as your setup, yes, I love the Infinity speakers. Kappas are my favorite, that's what I run but I bought adapter plates to fit 6.5" in all 4 doors.

Looks like a great setup to get you started. Install is pretty easy in a 4Runner, there is tons of room.

This is some damn good advice!

 

[UnderFire]

All extra battery capacity will do for you is keep voltage higher at the amp, therefore making the amp more efficient and make more power, it will not "clean up" the bass unless the amp is setup improperly or getting too low of voltage to begin with. You shouldn't need it with a stock 3rd gen under about 1000W Class D on the sub, running proper wiring from the front for minimal voltage drop of course (1/0 OFC at least on a ~20ft run) You'll want to put a volt meter on the amp side to check your actual voltage at full tilt to make sure, it can be a few points off from the rest of the system.

You definitely want to make sure you tune the amp properly. If you need more info just hit me up and I can walk you through the process.

He brought up some good points, there's a lot of stuff you'll learn if you decide to delve deeper. Prefab boxes are not the way to go once you get into it, you'll want to design and build your own boxes to get the most out of your equipment.

Underpowering speakers is OK though, you just have to make sure you're not overstepping the limits of the amp.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

This is some damn good advice!

Thanks. I've bought and sold tons of used stereo equipment, spending a little more each time.

After digging up an old thread by [MENTION=5602]Rock Slide[/MENTION], I found the website I bought the adapter plates from. Back then, it was less than $15 including shipping.

Car Speaker Adapters

Here is Rock Slide's thread on YT: Rock Slide's YT thread

Buying these means you don't have to drill into the doors' sheet metal. I think it's worth it.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

All extra battery capacity will do for you is keep voltage higher at the amp, therefore making the amp more efficient and make more power, it will not "clean up" the bass unless the amp is setup improperly or getting too low of voltage to begin with. You shouldn't need it with a stock 3rd gen under about 1000W Class D on the sub, running proper wiring from the front for minimal voltage drop of course (1/0 OFC at least on a ~20ft run) You'll want to put a volt meter on the amp side to check your actual voltage at full tilt to make sure, it can be a few points off from the rest of the system.

You definitely want to make sure you tune the amp properly. If you need more info just hit me up and I can walk you through the process.

He brought up some good points, there's a lot of stuff you'll learn if you decide to delve deeper. Prefab boxes are not the way to go once you get into it, you'll want to design and build your own boxes to get the most out of your equipment.

Underpowering speakers is OK though, you just have to make sure you're not overstepping the limits of the amp.

For a Class D sub amp, a battery is unlikely to make as much of a difference as having a Class AB amp. I have a JL Slash 500/1 V2 which is a Class AB. It cleans up the bass by allowing the amp to have high power all the time, basically a big capacitor. Having a battery will also prevent the lights dimming while the truck is stopped with the bass up. I know that with my setup, the money spent on the battery was well worth it. A battery also helps to take some strain off the alternator, as the alternator and standard car battery are slow current.

Not sure why underpowering speakers is ok, it will just sound muddy. It's like using a 50x4 stereo and trying to power 50W RMS speakers. It just won't sound good. If you don't want an amp, get speakers to match the power output of the deck, actually it will sound better than getting higher powered speakers. I bought a Corolla XRS with Kappa speakers and an aftermarket deck with no amp. It sounded horrible compared with an aftermarket deck with Reference speakers and no amp that were in my 4Runner. Once I got an amp to power the speakers in the Corolla, it made them come alive. Best to match the equipment you have. A 600 W RMS amp running 3x300 W RMS subs will overheat the amp.

Also putting in the 2/4 AWG Big 3 will make the light dimming issue worse, not better. Another reason to just get a high current battery.

 

[UnderFire]

For a Class D sub amp, a battery is unlikely to make as much of a difference as having a Class AB amp. I have a JL Slash 500/1 V2 which is a Class AB. It cleans up the bass by allowing the amp to have high power all the time, basically a big capacitor. Having a battery will also prevent the lights dimming while the truck is stopped with the bass up. I know that with my setup, the money spent on the battery was well worth it.

Not sure why underpowering speakers is ok, it will just sound muddy. It's like using a 50x4 stereo and trying to power 50W RMS speakers. It just won't sound good. If you don't want an amp, get speakers to match the power output of the deck, actually it will sound better than getting higher powered speakers. I bought a Corolla XRS with Kappa speakers and an aftermarket deck with no amp. It sounded horrible compared with an aftermarket deck with Reference speakers that were in my 4Runner. Once I got an amp to power the speakers, it made them come alive.

I agree with everything you're saying, not trying to contradict, just giving more info. Like I said, the amp will only play distorted bass if it's not getting enough voltage, and the lights dimming is also due to voltage drop, so the added capacity to keep up with demands without the extra amperage coming in from the alternator is what keeps the voltage up, proximity to the amp and whatnot is somewhat secondary, what really matters is voltage at the amp, it's all a numbers game.

And the reason why headunits sound bad is the extremely low output ~12W RMS in most cases, which you have to basically max out to get any real output, and most people will push their headunit past clipping which makes sound quality even worse. Couple that with the small footprint of the amp itself which leads to tiny output resistors and fets and you get low quality sound.

A relatively large amp like an old A/D/S or PPI Art series with a low power output will sound amazing comparatively, and as long as you aren't pushing the amp past it's limits even a speaker that can take 150W+ RMS can sound good on 50. I know from experience, my old mids could take all of 200W without breaking a sweat, I had them on less than half that, and I run my tweeters on 1/5th of their rated power, a mere 10W. It's ideal to have way more amp than your speaker can take and tune it down, but not for sound's sake, more for efficiency.

 

[fblainen11]

Thanks. I've bought and sold tons of used stereo equipment, spending a little more each time.

After digging up an old thread by [MENTION=5602]Rock Slide[/MENTION], I found the website I bought the adapter plates from. Back then, it was less than $15 including shipping.

Car Speaker Adapters

Here is Rock Slide's thread on YT: Rock Slide's YT thread

Buying these means you don't have to drill into the doors' sheet metal. I think it's worth it.

Those adapters are 5.25 inch adapters. I need 6.5 adapters.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

I agree with everything you're saying, not trying to contradict, just giving more info. Like I said, the amp will only play distorted bass if it's not getting enough voltage, and the lights dimming is also due to voltage drop, so the added capacity to keep up with demands without the extra amperage coming in from the alternator is what keeps the voltage up, proximity to the amp and whatnot is somewhat secondary, what really matters is voltage at the amp, it's all a numbers game.

And the reason why headunits sound bad is the extremely low output ~12W RMS in most cases, which you have to basically max out to get any real output, and most people will push their headunit past clipping which makes sound quality even worse. Couple that with the small footprint of the amp itself which leads to tiny output resistors and fets and you get low quality sound.

A relatively large amp like an old A/D/S or PPI Art series with a low power output will sound amazing comparatively, and as long as you aren't pushing the amp past it's limits even a speaker that can take 150W+ RMS can sound good on 50. I know from experience, my old mids could take all of 200W without breaking a sweat, I had them on less than half that, and I run my tweeters on 1/5th of their rated power, a mere 10W. It's ideal to have way more amp than your speaker can take and tune it down, but not for sound's sake, more for efficiency.

Gotcha. Now I understand what you were saying about underpowering a speaker. You always want to get an amp that has way more power than what is required by the components. Basically "matching" your equipment.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

Those adapters are 5.25 inch adapters. I need 6.5 adapters.

Yeah. I was looking at that as well. They may not make them anymore? It used to be a different company name/website.

 

[slomatt]

Power ratings for speakers are simply how many watts RMS (average power) the speaker can handle without possibly damaging the voice coil. You can drive a "50w" speaker with either a "25w" amp or a "100w" amp. The "100w" amp will just get louder than the "25w" before distorting and put you at risk of burning out (or bottoming out) the voice coil.

The power rating has no effect on how loud a speaker can play, instead volume is determined by the efficiency of the speaker which is often measured as decibels at 1 watt of input power (db/watt).

I put quotes around the amp power ratings since they are not always directly comparable. Power ratings don't mean anything unless you know the distortion level at that power, for example "100w at 0.01% THD". Luckily many manufacturers now follow the CEA-2006 standard and use similar rating methods, but some don't.

Audio companies simplify all this in their marketing to try to make it easier to compare products, but the watt ratings don't tell the entire story.

In general it is good to do the following:

- Buy a head unit with high voltage RCA outputs. 4v is good. This allows you to get the signal level way up above the noise floor.

- Adjust your amplifier's gain controls way down, you want to have your heat unit almost at full volume when listening to really loud music. This way your head unit is putting out as many volts as possible.

- Buy an amplifier that is rated for more watts than your speakers are. Again, this is a major simplification and is not a hard rule. Distortion is what usually kills speakers, so you want to avoid over driving your amp, and running a 100w amp at 10% is much better than running a 25w amp at 90%. Keep in mind that a lot of the listening we do is just at a few watts of power.


For what it's worth, at home I use an 8-10w class A amplifier and it blows the doors off most "100w" amps.

- Matt

 

[gamefreakgc]

Thanks. I've bought and sold tons of used stereo equipment, spending a little more each time.

After digging up an old thread by [MENTION=5602]Rock Slide[/MENTION], I found the website I bought the adapter plates from. Back then, it was less than $15 including shipping.

Car Speaker Adapters

Here is Rock Slide's thread on YT: Rock Slide's YT thread

Buying these means you don't have to drill into the doors' sheet metal. I think it's worth it.

The Infinity Reference X series comes with a multi-use adapter plate. It has the holes to match up with the rear door holes with no extra drilling, all I had to do was trim of 3 larger tabs on the adapter and it fit perfectly. I'm assuming the Kappas probably come with this same adapter now.

 

[fblainen11]

The kappas I put in my front were 119 a couple of months ago. They're now 199.

Can i put reference series in the back without issues? Or will I be able to tell?

Should I wait to find a better deal on the kappas again?

 

[stir_fry_boy]

The kappas I put in my front were 119 a couple of months ago. They're now 199.

Can i put reference series in the back without issues? Or will I be able to tell?

Should I wait to find a better deal on the kappas again?

Amazon is an authorized seller, usually pretty cheap there. You may notice a difference, especially in volume.

 

[fblainen11]

I've got 75 RMS on the kappas. And Amazon doesn't have the kappas in stock anymore. That's where I got them from.

 

[gamefreakgc]

The kappas I put in my front were 119 a couple of months ago. They're now 199.

Can i put reference series in the back without issues? Or will I be able to tell?

Should I wait to find a better deal on the kappas again?

They sound very different, at least to me. It's really up to you!

 

[BrianSD_42]

The kappas I put in my front were 119 a couple of months ago. They're now 199.

Can i put reference series in the back without issues? Or will I be able to tell?

Should I wait to find a better deal on the kappas again?

Just buy the Kappas from EBAY. There are many many very well reviewed (think 10,000+ positive reviews) sellers on EBAY that sell "grey market" Infinity , Alpine etc amps and speakers. Usually these items are listed at 40% below Crutchfield and come with a 2 year warranty. These are high volume sellers. I"ve bought this way in the past and haven't been burned yet.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

Just buy the Kappas from EBAY. There are many many very well reviewed (think 10,000+ positive reviews) sellers on EBAY that sell "grey market" Infinity , Alpine etc amps and speakers. Usually these items are listed at 40% below Crutchfield and come with a 2 year warranty. These are high volume sellers. I"ve bought this way in the past and haven't been burned yet.

I have used Infinity's warranty, they stand behind their product. Just make sure they are sold by an authorized retailer or the warranty is worthless.