Florida School Shooting

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TacoRunn0517 said:
Then what is it then? Technology? The age of the internet? Are we just blowing this stuff out of proportion?



I'm a snowflake now haha? Sweet. And how did my generation raise up this generation haha? We'd be having kids in middle/high school.
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You misunderstand me. I’m saying these are buzzwords that are easy to toss out to shutdown somebody else trying to have a conversation. Off-choader saw an article posted by nbc and decried fake news. He’s some expert or something and didn’t see it on the America first Facebook page.

And additionally, I have no idea how old you are. But the last generation always raised somebody. Every generation has their rebels. The difference is now most people don’t tie your ass up to the back of a vehicle and drag you for few miles because you’re black or gay. I’m not talking about you specifically for anything. I’m simply making a point. People today are smarter and more tolerant. And you see a lot of stupid shit because things go viral now. So when grandpa was young, he had no clue that Tommy was listening to devil music 2k mi away in New York City.
 
simple said:
You misunderstand me. I’m saying these are buzzwords that are easy to toss out to shutdown somebody else trying to have a conversation. Off-choader saw an article posted by nbc and decried fake news. He’s some expert or something and didn’t see it on the America first Facebook page.

And additionally, I have no idea how old you are. But the last generation always raised somebody. Every generation has their rebels. The difference is now most people don’t tie your ass up to the back of a vehicle and drag you for few miles because you’re black or gay. I’m not talking about you specifically for anything. I’m simply making a point. People today are smarter and more tolerant. And you see a lot of stupid shit because things go viral now. So when grandpa was young, he had no clue that Tommy was listening to devil music 2k mi away in New York City.
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Ah. I see haha. My bad. I agree. I was born in the late 80s but a "Millennial" could be someone as early as the early 80s. Regardless, your point is valid. I just think my generation is more lost than any other generation before. They want to identify with everything and nothing all at the same time. And it seems that when life gets tough, there is an excuse to just give up. I'm younger than the majority of T4R posters but I try to look outside my world and look at what is really going on. And when it comes to these shootings, things are getting worse. I don't think gun control is the answer and this is coming from someone who doesn't own guns. I think it really starts at the home and how kids are raised up. It doesn't end there but having a solid home helps things.
 
mscot said:
I'm sure they appreciate the hell out of your prayers. Good thing your god was on the lookout yesterday.



What does the gun violence data in Australia look like? No, let me guess, you're going to bring up Chicago here. A single city with gun control laws surrounded by cities with no gun control laws is about as ineffective as your prayers.



We're all ears. Let's hear your ideas.
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No need to be snarky. If you don't like god or prayers that's fine. Me praying and being thoughtful to n a positive way does zero harm. I don't expect an omnipotent being to show up and "stop" anything. Clear?

I'm glad you asked about Australia, and really any other place that has banned guns:

https://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

Everywhere that has banned guns has seen a marked increase in violent crime. And most places have seen NO decrease in murder rates.

I've posted my ideas here ad naseum.

It's simple. Anyone commiting a crime with a gun in their possession gets HARSH penalties. 10 year minimum first offense. 50 year second offense. Life on the 3rd. No more revolving door criminals that continue to use guns to commit crimes and eventually use them to murder people.

That will solve a lot of the gun violence and gun death problem right there. Next is creating better mental health support for our nation. We medicate people with chemicals we have no long term data on. It's interesting and scary that most of these mass murderes have mental health issues, are being medicated with psychotropic drugs that we know very little about, but we do nothing to understand this component.

The vast majority of gun deaths in USA are suicide and crime related. Not gonna stop suicides by banning Guns. Gotta attack mental health issues. Not gonna stop criminals already willing to murder people by banning guns- they get them illegally and there will always be a black market for guns, even if they are homemade. So you have to start attacking the problem with punishment that keeps criminals that utilize guns in any fashion behind bars.

Mass murders/shootings. It's sad to say, but nothing will stop them. The only way to make them less prevalent and keep the number of folks injured or murdered is for citizens to be armed to return fire and stop them before they can kill so many. Look at all of the folks who were stopped by citizens with CcW's. Less loss of life is the best we can hope for.

The media needs to stop plastering the photos and names of these evil people up. Folks who break and do this want to bring destruction upon others and be known for it shouldn't get the attention they crave.

Even if we banned all guns, mass murders and evil people won't stop. You'd have to ban gasoline, glass bottles, cotton cloth, vehicles, knives, machine shops, metal, plastic, 3D printers, fertilizer, Ammonia, etc.

The list of items you'd have to ban from stopping potential mass murders would put us back to the Stone Age bro! Literally.

The best we can do is be armed with the proper tools and mind set to fight off these individuals and have a chance at stopping them.

It's reality. It's harsh sometimes.
 
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simple said:
Brother, I wasn’t asking because I don’t know what those documents say. I was a poli sci major and had classes that discussed this in great detail. I’m asking you what you think the ‘regulated’ means.

What you’re talking about was the founding fathers trying to get away with not having to keep up a government armed force. 1 because of the stigma of a potentially oppressive force. But also because the nation was literally just formed, militaries are expensive, communication and control was abysmal and difficult. It’s easier to ask for citizens to be ready to call up in ‘a time of danger’.

Times have changed my friend. I can appreciate the words in the document as black and white, but you need to appreciate that things are not what they were 230 years ago. People latch on to this argument as a way to keep their badass weapons. When I think of the ‘well regulated militia’ I think of the clowns who got dressed up in their tacticool gear outside of military recruiting offices to ‘protect’ recruiters, and ended up ND’ing into nearby businesses and the idiot who shot up a pizza shop with his AR-15 because they read an article that Hillary Clinton child prostitution ring there.

Don’t get me wrong, I can also empathize with the oppressive government. I’m equally, if not more, disturbed by the militarization of the police. ****ing cops with MRAPs and drones that can detonate a charge to kill people. W. T. F. But there’s *******s out there too that go killing cops and kids with 30rd magazines.

I’m all about calling out hypocrisy on both sides. I think Trump and a lot of posters in here are dead on that a lot of warning signs were missed here. But, Sen Cruz and Rubio both immediately came out decrying the politicization of this tradgedy, but the other side is just as quick to politicize an illegal immigrant killing someone, or some ******* that drove his ****ing can into a crowd of people. You can’t have it both ways. If not now, then when can we have the discussion? Bump stocks were talked about 15mins after the Vegas shooting and actually had bipartisan support. Where the hell is that now? Oh yeah, nowhere.
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If you are as well studied as you claim you would know exactly what "we'll regulated" means...

It means that all citizens have the duty to maintain necessary training and maintain there tools/weapons in order to defend themselves and the country from enemies outside and within.

The world has changed. So what? Does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to defend ourselves against evil people and evil governments seeking to do us harm. That will never change. The need to keep tyranny in check and defend one self transcends time.

Beyond self defense and keeping tyranny in check- we should be free to do as we wish as long as we aren't hurting others or trampling their individual rights.

Liberty is not safe. Safety is an illusion sold to the masses, a drug that keeps them believing that they must depend on someone else or a body of people.

When you need a law enforcement officer to aid you, they cannot be there at all times. You are the only person who can provide for your defense. No one else is responsible to you no matter how much you wish they were. It's reality.
 
Gunslinger-13 said:
No need to be snarky. If you don't like god or prayers that's fine. Me praying and being thoughtful to n a positive way does zero harm. I don't expect an omnipotent being to show up and "stop" anything. Clear?

I'm glad you asked about Australia, and really any other place that has banned guns:

https://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

Everywhere that has banned guns has seen a marked increase in violent crime. And most places have seen NO decrease in murder rates.

I've posted my ideas here ad naseum.

It's simple. Anyone commiting a crime with a gun in their possession gets HARSH penalties. 10 year minimum first offense. 50 year second offense. Life on the 3rd. No more revolving door criminals that continue to use guns to commit crimes and eventually use them to murder people.

That will solve a lot of the problem right there.

Mass murders/shootings. It's sad to say, but nothing will stop them. The only way to make them less prevalent and keep the number of folks injured or murdered is for citizens to be armed to return fire and stop them before they can kill so many. Look at all of the folks who were stopped by citizens with CcW's. Less loss of life is the best we can hope for.

The media needs to stop plastering the photos and names of these evil people up. Folks who break and do this want to bring destruction upon others and be known for it shouldn't get the attention they crave.

Even if we banned all guns, mass murders and evil people won't stop. You'd have to ban gasoline, glass bottles, cotton cloth, vehicles, knives, machine shops, metal, plastic, 3D printers, fertilizer, Ammonia, etc.

The list of items you'd have to ban from stopping potential mass murders would put us back to the Stone Age bro! Literally.

The best we can do is be armed with the proper tools and mind set to fight off these individuals and have a chance at stopping them.

It's reality. It's harsh sometimes.
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I certainly don’t speak for everybody here, but I don’t think people are trying to ban guns. But I don’t see a reason why you need a bump stock, a 30rd magazine, or why somebody needs an AR style weapon in general.

I hear you, and agree to a point that a good guy with a gun saves lives. But, I think there’s very real problems that most pro gun crowd folks either reject to consider or don’t think about at all. And I’ll freely admit, my viewpoint could be considered heavily stereotyped.

I tend to think of CCW holders as dudes who think they’re navy seals or something. Watch a couple YouTube videos, but the right gear, grow a beard, and they’re good to go. And the truth is, most gun owners are just not trained well enough to defend others. Everyone wants to be a hero. Especially dudes with a CCW. But in a mass shooting event, if a dude with a weapon acts to do the the right thing, there’s in increased risk to bystanders with more rounds flying through the air. With heightened adrenaline, good guys with guns are just as likely to rush into a situation and falsely identify others with guns as bad guys. The police as well.

I’m not anti-CCW. And I would want a good guy with a gun in, God forbid, a situation like that. I’m just arguing that a weekend warrior who shoots a 100rds at a target every few weeks is probably not ready for a dynamic event like countering a mass shooter. Additionally, the majority of America doesn’t need some of the crazy weapon systems that you can buy.
 
simple said:
I certainly don’t speak for everybody here, but I don’t think people are trying to ban guns. But I don’t see a reason why you need a bump stock, a 30rd magazine, or why somebody needs an AR style weapon in general.

I hear you, and agree to a point that a good guy with a gun saves lives. But, I think there’s very real problems that most pro gun crowd folks either reject to consider or don’t think about at all. And I’ll freely admit, my viewpoint could be considered heavily stereotyped.

I tend to think of CCW holders as dudes who think they’re navy seals or something. Watch a couple YouTube videos, but the right gear, grow a beard, and they’re good to go. And the truth is, most gun owners are just not trained well enough to defend others. Everyone wants to be a hero. Especially dudes with a CCW. But in a mass shooting event, if a dude with a weapon acts to do the the right thing, there’s in increased risk to bystanders with more rounds flying through the air. With heightened adrenaline, good guys with guns are just as likely to rush into a situation and falsely identify others with guns as bad guys. The police as well.

I’m not anti-CCW. And I would want a good guy with a gun in, God forbid, a situation like that. I’m just arguing that a weekend warrior who shoots a 100rds at a target every few weeks is probably not ready for a dynamic event like countering a mass shooter. Additionally, the majority of America doesn’t need some of the crazy weapon systems that you can buy.
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I feel like I just went over this, and you're absolutely right most of the time a good guy with a gun that isn't military or police in a mass shooting even is going to make things worse not better, for the exact reasons you describe. regards, a guy with a conceal carry.
 
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TacoRunn0517 said:
It doesn't end there but having a solid home helps things.
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In this case...foster child, adopted, adopted dad died 10 years ago and adopted mom died from the Flu last November.


What we really need, according to the media is some kind of "Pre" Police like that movie 'Minority Report'...look how that turned out, system was then used by an individual to commit a murder.

I agree with gunslinger on some ideas...if we all had guns it might make someone think twice about doing something stupid...probably not.

And to simple.
They tried to ban 'assault' style guns back with that 'Brady Bill' Edit>that was pistols, Assault weapons ban was a year later...memory gets foggy.
Total failure, you could still buy them, just drove the prices up on the hi-cap mags...there are millions and millions of them...good luck getting rid of them.
They put 'thumb-hole' stocks on the guns, ground off the bayonet attachment and no flash hiders.
But hey you could still go buy it with a 10rd mag. legally. It really was still an assault rifle. Just helped to appease the emotions of some I guess.
 
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You offering your prayers but then taking a hard line on gun laws is condescending, at best.

And then there's the typical straw man of every NRA die hard. The charts that take nothing into consideration aside from was a violent crime committed (i.e. rise in poverty, and other control points).
No one is saying that restricting gun purchasing is going to eradicate violent crime (no one I've heard anyway). But I'd much rather someone come at me with a knife than a gun, ya know.

The concern is about mass shootings - not random acts of isolated violence or liquor store robberies. And, to that end...
Australia has had 0 mass shootings since enacting their gun laws.
The UK has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world and has only had one mass shooting since 1996.

I own guns. I have two antique shot guns from separate great grandfathers that I hope to never part with plus some more modern long guns. But I'm not so dense as to see that a kid with a bolt action rifle isn't going to do near the damage that a kid with a semi-auto will.

You have good ideas but they won't have a lot of impact unless you limit access to guns that can throw out 15 rounds at less than 1/second and then reload damn near as quickly.
Much less to speak of the giant tax increases needed to pay for it all - and we've seen how willing the country is on that considering we just enabled a giant handout to the wealthy.
 
Gunslinger-13 said:
Not everything is about Trump bro. Get over it already. It's tiring your incessant need to tie anything and everything negative to Trump. Obsessive really.
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I’m not tying anything to him, those are Beavis’ own actions.

So speaking of “get over it” if you don’t like remarks, ignore me, get over it, or hell...pray it away.
 
BackOff said:
In this case...foster child, adopted, adopted dad died 10 years ago and adopted mom died from the Flu last November.


What we really need, according to the media is some kind of "Pre" Police like that movie 'Minority Report'...look how that turned out, system was then used by an individual to commit a murder.

I agree with gunslinger on some ideas...if we all had guns it might make someone think twice about doing something stupid...probably not.

And to simple.
They tried to ban 'assault' style guns back with that 'Brady Bill'
Total failure, you could still buy them, just drove the prices up on the hi-cap mags...there are millions and millions of them...good luck getting rid of them.
They put 'thumb-hole' stocks on the guns and ground off the bayonet attachment.
But hey you could still go buy it with a 10rd mag. legally. It really was still an assault rifle. Just helped to appease the emotions of some I guess.
Click to expand...

he obviously needed support he wasn't getting. the point about him losing his parents and foster parents in my mind's eye STRENGTHENS the argument that strong family support can prevent this.. he clearly didn't have any, or enough. that doesn't give him a pass on what he did but as I said in my first post I think the solution here isn't anything to do with guns it's everything to do with parenting, teaching and mental health. most who do crazy things have a "trigger" event, maybe losing his foster mother in November was his. point is prevention would have started with support 3 months ago, not with an assault weapons ban. regarding the minority report thing, I have had a couple mothers here at work today say "well, he was reported to the FBI... TWICE" yes and we are protected in a free society you can't lock someone up for what someone else thinks they might do, they can't arrest you until you do something, often times then it's too late. I don't see a logical way to work through deciding who gets to be free and who doesn't based on what they might do.
 
Gunslinger-13 said:
If you are as well studied as you claim you would know exactly what "we'll regulated" means...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure the founding fathers even knew what "well regulated" was supposed to mean - they certainly didn't agree on a meaning - but there was the concept of self regulation. As you said "It means that all citizens have the duty to maintain necessary training and maintain there tools/weapons in order to defend themselves and the country from enemies outside and within."

But that's quite clearly not what we have here. Yes, there are certain sectors of the population that do this, but you also have a lot who don't - from yahoos running around playing "Red Dawn" to kids that want to act tough to nut cases who want to kill a lot of people. And while the idea that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" might have been the reality of frontier life 250 years ago, today a bunch of armed people with little or no training do absolutely zero against modern armaments and have a value of zero to a country with the most powerful military force the world has ever known.

I don't pretend to know the answers. Gun control is sticky because of huge amount of armaments freely available in the US. But I do know that the NRA's "everything is better with guns and the solution to every problem is more guns" stance is a bald-faced sales pitch that quite obviously is not working.
 
BackOff said:
In this case...foster child, adopted, adopted dad died 10 years ago and adopted mom died from the Flu last November.


What we really need, according to the media is some kind of "Pre" Police like that movie 'Minority Report'...look how that turned out, system was then used by an individual to commit a murder.

I agree with gunslinger on some ideas...if we all had guns it might make someone think twice about doing something stupid...probably not.

And to simple.
They tried to ban 'assault' style guns back with that 'Brady Bill'
Total failure, you could still buy them, just drove the prices up on the hi-cap mags...there are millions and millions of them...good luck getting rid of them.
They put 'thumb-hole' stocks on the guns and ground off the bayonet attachment.
But hey you could still go buy it with a 10rd mag. legally. It really was still an assault rifle. Just helped to appease the emotions of some I guess.
Click to expand...

jordanrb81 said:
he obviously needed support he wasn't getting. the point about him losing his parents and foster parents in my mind's eye STRENGTHENS the argument that strong family support can prevent this.. he clearly didn't have any, or enough. that doesn't give him a pass on what he did but as I said in my first post I think the solution here isn't anything to do with guns it's everything to do with parenting, teaching and mental health. most who do crazy things have a "trigger" event, maybe losing his foster mother in November was his. point is prevention would have started with support 3 months ago, not with an assault weapons ban. regarding the minority report thing, I have had a couple mothers here at work today say "well, he was reported to the FBI... TWICE" yes and we are protected in a free society you can't lock someone up for what someone else thinks they might do, they can't arrest you until you do something, often times then it's too late. I don't see a logical way to work through deciding who gets to be free and who doesn't based on what they might do.
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[MENTION=199597]jordanrb81[/MENTION] and I are on the same page. Having a solid home life doesn't guarantee that these things won't happen. What does seem to be a common theme is that these attackers have little support to place one calls home. That always seems to be overlooked by everyone who has a voice in these matters.
 
There is very little help out there

There are no places for kids like this to get help. Unfortunately, we need to arm police at schools, this is not going to end with gun laws. Its the crazy behind the gun that kills. We need to change with the times. This is such a hard road to fight but someone has to step up, until they do we need to protect our kids. We have plenty of officers and military that could be hired as security at schools.
 
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Off-choader said:
Woah broh 18 this year? sounds like someones been watching to much CNN, one was a bb gun, couple accidental and I believe if im not mistaken a stray bullet from off campus somewhere hit a school building?
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For the record your guy Trump said it was 30 this morning. I know part of his "charm" is that you can't believe a word that comes out of the guy's mouth but in this case you can't really blame CNN for exaggerating with the number 18. He got his info from Faux News - though they only had the number at 29 on the screen yesterday when I saw it.
 
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