Florida School Shooting

[hikenbike]

what would happen if he pulled the fire alarm, everyone ran outside to the curb and then he plowed them down with a truck

Likely to kill and injure far less ..........if he wasn’t gunned down by the security guy first.


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[Off-choader]

Everyone is already at risk. Your hesitation could mean their death. Those people were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and nobody could change that. Distracting the shooter with even a somewhat decent shot could easily save more lives.

Great points, they are cowards for attacking gun free zones, many end it all with suicide so if firing a few rounds and missing still could lead to the coward running or shooting themselves.

 

[Bumbo]

I think I have to agree with [MENTION=130999]Inv4drZm[/MENTION]

Most people I know with a CCW have changed their lives to carry a firearm. It's such a big responsibility that most take it pretty seriously.

Most I know of actually shoot a lot more than law enforcement people in general.

Most hobbyist, weekend warriors, and general enthusiasts generally have more range time and the average police officer. That said, it is a perishable skill. The is a cost to up-keep.

You want to look at the typical beat cop, take a look at what happened in the LAPD / Christopher Dorner incident where a bunch of LAPD officers unloaded on a truck with two people delivering news papers early in the morning who they suspected may be Dorner.

BOTH occupants of this truck survived... There are soo many bullet holes in that Tacoma it's not even funny. Kinda makes you think...

Link to story:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...very-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html

 

[Gunslinger-13]

Gunslinger, here is my issue with your comment about conceal carry people being hero's. I get that the ones you interact with, you do so while training them. that in no way makes them the majority... not by a mile. a good guy with a gun 90% of the time in a mass shooter situation is going to get themselves and more people killed. It's just common sense. I am going to go out on a limb here and say you are likely a better shot than me. my CCW is a Ruger LCR chambered in .38 special. so here's the drill, I'll take an AR-15 and you take my CCW then I'll surprise you from 50 ft. (that's right I get to know when I'm coming but you don't) away and we'll see who hits center mass first... think you have a chance... you don't even though I concede to your superior skills, because I have the right tool for the job. I would never actually try this unless it were with the equivalent to paint balls but I think you see my point. as snub nose revolver isn't designed to be accurate at even 50 ft. the average conceal carry person is only really going to be able to put down an active shooter that has an AR, with their pocket weapon if they are close enough to put barrel burns on the back of their head. but from 50 ft. across a room with 30 screaming kids in it... I wouldn't take that shot because I know I would never make it. which brings up another point. the active shooter is trying to kill innocent by standers the hero in this case one would assume only wants to hit one target and is trying to be careful not to hit the 30 bodies panicking between them.

and before you ask me if I believe this why even carry. because within 25ft. half the distance referred to above I am actually a pretty good shot with this weapon and you'd have to be within 10ft. of me to ever be enough of a threat to myself or my loved ones before I would ever imagine using it.

Last thing... Do you know the stats on people with CCW's that end up getting shot with their own gun? not a one off accidental discharge I mean they pull it during an attempted rape or mugging and the criminal takes it from them, then shoots them with it? without proper training this is actually the higher statistical outcome, which is why you should be a lot busier than you are. people are idiots, people with guns are still basically idiots. author (me) included.

You should go and research those stats. Literally- when citizens with CCW's engage active shooters there is less loss of life versus the police getting there and engaging after the shooter has minutes to hours to go to town.

11-1 more deaths when police have to stop smactive shooters versus CCW holders.

Your claims are baseless. There are millions of CCW holders and a very low occurance of them shooting themselves or others.

It's all out there for you to see if you remove the lens of bias.

What do you believe is "proper training"?

What do you believe the level of training is for the average LEO. I bet you'd be surprised that they train very little unless on SWAT teams of specific task forces.

Average street cops are novice shooters at best. Very few are experts. It's actually very similar to the rest of the citizenry. Mostly novice shooters with few experts. Very similar cross sections and percentages.

The bigger the agency, the less training they get as allocation of limited funds is a problem.

Look at NYPD and LAPD. Outside of heavy hitters on sWAt and specialized task forces you have a bunch of undertrained officers constantly making mistakes in gunfights. It's sad we don't fund proper training. But a reality.

The average LEO makes about $50-$60K and can't afford gear or high round count tactical training classes. The average firearm enthusiast makes more and spends more on gear and training. I live it every day

 

[Off-choader]

Likely to kill and injure far less ..........if he wasn’t gunned down by the security guy first.


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Where do you come up with that logic, the truck attack in nice killed 86 and injured some 400-500? but nice try

 

[hikenbike]

I am trying to understand your post...



Maybe something is getting lost in translation here, but what do you mean by "more intrusion"?



Part of what you are saying almost sounds like some type of systematic disarming of people, and a blatant violation of 4th amendment rights.



That sir would be a tall order because it would literally be history repeating itself...

Inconvenience. Reregistering your arms and background checks with local law enforcement every 2-3 years or so.


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[Inv4drZm]

Inconvenience. Reregistering your arms and background checks with local law enforcement every 2-3 years or so.


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That doesn't stop even mildly determined people from getting their driver's licenses, or hunting/fishing permits, why would it work with guns? Getting smog tests on cars doesn't keep people from owning cars. Bad people will just circumvent the checks anyway.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

Inconvenience. Reregistering your arms and background checks with local law enforcement every 2-3 years or so.


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Would you be willing to Apply that standard to every other amendment/right contained in the Bill of Rights?

 

[jordanrb81]

You should go and research those stats. Literally- when citizens with CCW's engage active shooters there is less loss of life versus the police getting there and engaging after the shooter has minutes to hours to go to town.

11-1 more deaths when police have to stop smactive shooters versus CCW holders.

Your claims are baseless. There are millions of CCW holders and a very low occurance of them shooting themselves or others.

It's all out there for you to see if you remove the lens of bias.

What do you believe is "proper training"?

What do you believe the level of training is for the average LEO. I bet you'd be surprised that they train very little unless on SWAT teams of specific task forces.

Average street cops are novice shooters at best. Very few are experts. It's actually very similar to the rest of the citizenry. Mostly novice shooters with few experts. Very similar cross sections and percentages.

The bigger the agency, the less training they get as allocation of limited funds is a problem.

Look at NYPD and LAPD. Outside of heavy hitters on sWAt and specialized task forces you have a bunch of undertrained officers constantly making mistakes in gunfights. It's sad we don't fund proper training. But a reality.

The average LEO makes about $50-$60K and can't afford gear or high round count tactical training classes. The average firearm enthusiast makes more and spends more on gear and training. I live it every day

1 you didn't answer my question 2 I think you missed my very first point. I am not talking about the police. brining up another poorly trained bad shot doesn't justify the first badly trained poor shot. this is the way I see it. if you are a member of an elite team of our armed forces and if you have chased an enemy combatant through the streets of a city in countries including but not limited to Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan etc. if you have had to chase someone into buildings where there were unsuspecting families and the person you were after was more than willing to use random 10 year olds as human shields and you still got your mark. first, thank you for your service and second yup I'd take you in an active shooter situation and totally put my life in your hands. which is to say I have full faith that someone like that, someone who not only has the training but has actually done it before, has the nerves to make that kind of shot and knows when to do it. literally anyone else is a crap shoot. as far as I see it there are people like that and the rest of us. does that mean in an active shooter situation I myself wouldn't like to believe I could help of course I do, and if I had the shot, as Off-Choader put it right place right time I hope I would make the right call. but do I believe anyone would really be better off, I guess I'm just not that arrogant of a person.

so answer my question please, and then explain my bias to me

 

[AKmoney]

Likely to kill and injure far less ..........if he wasn’t gunned down by the security guy first.

From my previous post:

The terrorist in Nice, France killed more people with a truck than Stephen Paddock did in Vegas.

 

[jordanrb81]

one more thing, re read my comment I specifically said not one offs of accidental discharge but situations where the person perpetrating the crime physically takes the defenders gun and then proceeds to use it against them. for every successful time someone with a CCW fends off a would be attacker there at 1.75 (so almost two) incidents where the defender gets shot with his or her own weapon by the attacker. google it, then use it in the next ad you run for training. those who have received proper and specific concealed weapons training have this occur almost never. GOOGLE IT... really...please?

 

[jordanrb81]

Honestly I would prefer someone with a CCW in basically every mass shooting incident. In a shooting, anything you can do to distract the shooter saves lives. I hate to say it, but putting rounds down range (within your ability) in the direction of the shooter, even without a 100% clear shot, will save lives. A mass shooter isn't looking for people coming after them, so you will have the jump on them instead of vise-versa like you assume, unless they singled you out as the first victim. If you are truly about saving the most lives, harming a bystander yourself is the least of your concerns as long as you are effective at making the shooter distracted, take cover, wounded, etc. The shooter isn't playing by the rules, I would be okay with a trained civilian doing something about it even if it isn't 100% clear-cut, close range, 1v1, open shot.

You're right the shooter isn't playing by the rules. if I harm a bystander I assure you it is not the least of my concerns, even if one does save countless innocent lives, do you imagine you'll just forget about the innocent life you did take, even if it was on accident? also the reason I am even bringing this up is because many are advocating that teachers staff etc. begin to arm themselves if this becomes the norm then the shooter is going to give priority to anyone who is basically not a student effectively singling them out. so no, you wouldn't have the drop on them.

 

[Inv4drZm]

You're right the shooter isn't playing by the rules. if I harm a bystander I assure you it is not the least of my concerns, even if one does save countless innocent lives, do you imagine you'll just forget about the innocent life you did take, even if it was on accident? also the reason I am even bringing this up is because many are advocating that teachers staff etc. begin to arm themselves if this becomes the norm then the shooter is going to give priority to anyone who is basically not a student effectively singling them out. so no, you wouldn't have the drop on them.

It's a lose-lose. Theoretically, would I easily forget about the innocent life I took? No. If I didn't take the shot would I easily forget about the innocent lives the shooter took that I could have prevented? No.

If they did arm teachers or other adults (not that I think this is necessarily a good idea) and shooters single them out, that's better than the normal shooting spree. That would take up way more time for the shooter, if they are even capable of doing so.

 

[ndcent]

fake and gay, the account your referring to was created after the shooting and since been deleted. Very similar to your white supremacist comments, that was a rumor from 4chan that CNN reported on as fact which has been completely discredited by local law enforcement

If it were fake you could prove it.

I’ll wait.

 

[Bodhi327]

It’s gunna be a new way of life just like after 911

Anyone can flip out and kill people at any given moment, taking away a bump stop or AR 15 will have little impact. If someone wants to do harm no law will stop them. It’s a sad reality and that’s the battle ahead. The bad guy will always be able to get a gun, so sad but true. We live in a different world. It’s time to change how we play the game. We need to protect our schools the same way we increased security at airports and sensitive areas after 911, there is no other answer at this point. The jackasses in the Senate can barely keep the government open and DACA is all but done, they are on vacation. If you expect your government to step up...good luck. They have security details and secret service. They are not in harms way. Republicans like the NRA and the Dems just cry out assault rifle.....Columbine was 1999. They have done nothing. That’s Clinton/Bush/ Obama and now Trump.

 

[Bumbo]

Inconvenience. Reregistering your arms and background checks with local law enforcement every 2-3 years or so.


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You can legislate safety all you want, but the state still needs resources to enforce them, and when they reach their hand out for the money, everyone seems to be broke.

In CA laws are continuously being passed to make it inconvenient already, and all it does is boost gun sales to epic levels. What do you think happens when you tell someone, you can't have something?

Truth of the matter is, they tried to ban the AR, and all it did was make sales skyrocket.

None of these "inconvenience" items stop people from buying. All it does is cost the state a fortune and increase gun sales.

 

[Rightside Up]

Disgusting. I bet a Prius forum has more freedom lovers.

 

[hikenbike]

You can legislate safety all you want, but the state still needs resources to enforce them, and when they reach their hand out for the money, everyone seems to be broke.



In CA laws are continuously being passed to make it inconvenient already, and all it does is boost gun sales to epic levels. What do you think happens when you tell someone, you can't have something?



Truth of the matter is, they tried to ban the AR, and all it did was make sales skyrocket.



None of these "inconvenience" items stop people from buying. All it does is cost the state a fortune and increase gun sales.

Won’t stop all but will stop some.......and I’ll take that. There’s no perfect solution but some progress is long long overdue. If gun sales to sane, qualified, reasonable people happens then fine......give each of them all 1000 guns for all I care........so long as they own them safely and are subjected to some inconvenience via a check mechanism of some sort on a fairly regular basis. But there’s too many paranoid fools out there who feel that the more that’s known about them then the more likely some governing body will get closer and closer to taking their beloved guns away. Preposterous.

You suggest doing nothing?


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[Rightside Up]

Won’t stop all but will stop some.......and I’ll take that. There’s no perfect solution but some progress is long long overdue. If gun sales to sane, qualified, reasonable people happens then fine......give each of them all 1000 guns for all I care........so long as they own them safely and are subjected to some inconvenience via a check mechanism of some sort on a fairly regular basis. But there’s too many paranoid fools out there that the more that’s known about them then the more likely some governing body will get closer and closer to taking their beloved guns away. Preposterous.

You suggest doing nothing?


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I suggest that the FBI do their jobs instead of fighting Trump.

 

[hikenbike]

I suggest that the FBI do their jobs instead of fighting Trump.

Their job will be done when Trump is behind bars.


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