Ford Raptor Ranger

[Thai]

As for C vs. boxed, we’re talking about apples to apples comparison...Tundra vs. F150. I understand the big trailer rigs have C-frame that are huge AND thick AND made of high tensile steel. (Boxing those huge frame is probably very costly anyways.)

With regards to F150 vs. Tundra frame, it is not like F150 is using cheap steel and then boxing them. F150 frame uses plenty of high-tensile steel and the newest F150 frame is also thick. In addition, F150 frame crossmembers go THRU AND THRU BOTH sides of the frame. This is similar to what my G-wagen has. The crossmembers are welded through BOTH side as of the frame. That makes the crossmembers both higher (better underbody clearances) and just brings frame torsional strength to the next level! Tundra frame crossmembers are welded to the underside of the frame.

In apples to apples comparo, the F150 frame makes the Tundra frame look like a kiddie toy IMHO.

Below pic is that of F150 frame...not sure if this is the current gen frame or not, but gives you an idea of what i am talking about.

As for making Tacoma/Tundra into a Prius...nice try Toyota but no cigars! Where is the Tundra or Tacoma exactly leading in fuel economy vs. competition?? Full size F150 4x4 with its top engine (non-Raptor) gets 17/23 MPG...which is about same as Tacoma’s numbers despite F150 being much bigger and lots more power. And then you can now throw in F150 diesel...that is rumored to get 21/30 mpg (city/hwy)!

There is only ONE thing that Toyota still does better than everyone else...reliability and lack of little things going wrong. But that gap is getting smaller everyday.

Please Toyota...stop living in the past...be more competitive!

 

[cfranck1]

Below pic is that of F150 frame...not sure if this is the current gen frame or not, but gives you an idea of what i am talking about.


Please Toyota...stop living in the past...be more competitive!

Yes Thai, that is the newest frame in the picture.

I'll add one from the Source book that is available to us at the dealer..
I get so much info available to me, it would make your head spin...

 

[Thai]

IMHO, drums are only a good choice if you’re talking about a musical band! Drums are HORRIBLE in a truck/SUV for two main reasons:

1. It may perform well on first stop, but fades fast due to heat. And what does Tacoma use as part of their 4wd system? That’s right, A-TRAC! And what does ATRAC do? It uses ABS system to pump the brakes on each tire to prevent torque loss in the wheel with traction. In other words, it is solely dependent on brake performance! Drums suck. (Disc brakes, on the other hand, dissipate heat relatively quickly and has much better fade resistance.)

2. In an off-roader, drums suck in water. Rust in the drums is a MAJOR issue in an off-roader. Drums suck.

There really is no damn good reason to use rear drum brakes on a consumer vehicle, especially one that goes off-road (or at least advertised as such).

Again, compare apples to apples. I think that Tacoma is the ONLY truck that uses rear drums. Now, are you guys gonna tell me that the other OEMs don’t know what they are doing?

 

[Thai]

Yes Thai, that is the newest frame in the picture.

I'll add one from the Source book that is available to us at the dealer..
I get so much info available to me, it would make your head spin...

Does Ford Raptor (F150) have rear locker standard or is it optional?? I know that the front diff has LSD as option.

 

[Thai]

Oh one more thing...and i think this is a KILLER feature of F150 (but not F250)...AWD mode on 4x4. Trucks tend to be empty in the rear most of the time for most folks. So, having RWD can be tricky on slippery conditions, esp around corners. Having AWD mode on a truck is a no-brainer...i have no idea why it took this long but glad Ford brought it to F150...just like it took forever for stability control to get to trucks!

And this AWD mode is why i only look at F150 vs. other trucks. Hopefully, by the time that i buy a truck, there will be more options with AWD.

 

[slippers]

Toyota needs to take its truck more seriously IMHO. The other brands are just blowing right past them in pretty much every category...luxury to off-road. Ford has done their homework with their F150/F250 range of models.

My next car purchase may very well be a F150 Diesel Platinum with FX4 off-road package. My brother is already going to get F250 within the next month or two.

EDIT: Toyota still with its super duper C-frame and drum freaking rear brakes!!!

Do you have $80K?

Friend just bought a loaded F-150 Platinum Crew Cab, leather heated/cooled/vibrating front seats…$73k

Now, add a diesel, you are going to be at a dizzying price point.

 

[Thai]

Do you have $80K?

Friend just bought a loaded F-150 Platinum Crew Cab, leather heated/cooled/vibrating front seats…$73k

Now, add a diesel, you are going to be at a dizzying price point.

For $65-70k, can you think of a better truck/SUV??? I cannot. Land Cruiser new can be bargained down to $75k...and that thing is not nearly as comfortable inside as Ford F150. :redbrick:

At 17/23 mpg, i might even skip diesel altogether and get the gas engine.

 

[cfranck1]

Does Ford Raptor (F150) have rear locker standard or is it optional?? I know that the front diff has LSD as option.

Looks to be standard..

Sorry for size of pictures.
Just busy here at work!

 

[Bumbo]

Do you have $80K?

Friend just bought a loaded F-150 Platinum Crew Cab, leather heated/cooled/vibrating front seats…$73k

Now, add a diesel, you are going to be at a dizzying price point.

You can get a lot of truck for 80k, and to be honest if you actually need/want a diesel, it's a sweet deal...

I recently took a look at and test drove the Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Z71 LTZ. Basically a turbo diesel luxury truck with an off-road package and it was about that 75k price tag window sticker. Meaning they still have some wiggle room on that. I keep telling people a optioned out Tundra is so overpriced when you consider the other options but the die hard Toyota guys just don't believe me.

I absolutely love the truck... my friend daily drives something like that, and he gets better gas mileage than I do in my v6 4Runner.

On top of that, the ability to pull a house behind you and get similar gas mileage to just about every other truck owner seems like a nice perk.

Big boy truck do big boy things... not the best picture, but that's not a small trailer, it absolutely dwarfs the 4Runner. He has plenty of room to host me in Yellowstone.

Toyota doesn't make a single thing I would want to pull that trailer with.

 

[Bumbo]

There really is no damn good reason to use rear drum brakes on a consumer vehicle, especially one that goes off-road (or at least advertised as such).

Again, compare apples to apples. I think that Tacoma is the ONLY truck that uses rear drums. Now, are you guys gonna tell me that the other OEMs don’t know what they are doing?

Well... here are some excuses as to why they kept the drums.

2016 Toyota Tacoma Has Rear Drum Brakes, Here's Why

Not sure how much of that I am buying...

 

[Bumbo]

[MENTION=54669]cfranck1[/MENTION]

Do you have any details about the F-150 Raptors Front Diff and Transfer case?

I understood the front was a Torsen, if that's correct and for the use case of that truck, also the right choice over a locker.

Not sure about the TC. I very much like what Toyota used on the 4th Gen and 5th Gen Limited, which is also the same as the GX. The Torsen locking center is one of my favorite designs. I was disappointing to see them move away from that for the 5th Gen for everything except the Limited.

 

[cfranck1]

[MENTION=54669]cfranck1[/MENTION]

Do you have any details about the F-150 Raptors Front Diff and Transfer case?

I understood the front was a Torsen, if that's correct and for the use case of that truck, also the right choice over a locker.

This the only info that they give us at the moment..

 

[Bumbo]

Shes got the right stuff... Front, Rear, and Center...

 

[Thai]

Well... here are some excuses as to why they kept the drums.

2016 Toyota Tacoma Has Rear Drum Brakes, Here's Why

Not sure how much of that I am buying...

There’s bullshit and then there’s Toyota engineers trying to justify cost-cutting measures. :hand:

 

[-JD-]

Check real world fuel economy numbers. Fords tend to be exaggerated when comparing to what people are actually seeing on fuelly, and much closer to the tundras numbers. Same thing for tow ratings. Fords tow ratings have a way of magically changing without them making any mechanical changes to their trucks.

Has there been issues with Toyota's bending frames? I know it was an issue on the raptors for awhile.

As for overall philosophy I would agree Toyota seems to be going the wrong way in some regards. Fords attitude seems to be 'what else can we put in these trucks to sell more of them" and Toyota's attitude seems to be "what else can we remove from these trucks and keep selling them".

 

[Bumbo]

Has there been issues with Toyota's bending frames? I know it was an issue on the raptors for awhile.

Anyone who follows the truck knows that it's not the whole story...

The frame bending issue was due to new buyers playing BJ Baldwin Trophy truck time... going for jumps, catching air, and the wildly aggressive drivers who pushed the platform to the limits. That's how it got that reputation. If you did the same with any other production truck it would have happened to them too.

The Gen 2 Raptors frame has been so freakin beefed up and reinforced that they are literally publicly saying that you won't bend it. On top of that, it's the first time I have seen a production manufacture design for the application that aggressive. They actually took into account people wanting to huck these things and get air and built something for "the people".

Really... just watch this. This guy is literally driving around in my backyard... or at least where I like to go play sometimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ct4PwI7FGA

I've said it before and ill say it again, I don't buy the first of anything, but as of right now, there isn't a single production truck that can do what the Raptor can do.

Fords attitude seems to be 'what else can we put in these trucks to sell more of them" and Toyota's attitude seems to be "what else can we remove from these trucks and keep selling them".

I'm not talking about their regular trucks or cars here, lets talk TRD/Pro vs SVT/RS... Ford seems to have the attitude of actually engineering for performance driven applications.

Look at the Focus RS... show me another production hot hatch that beats it? That thing is literally a beast for what it is, straight up production rally car.

Toyota is leaning towards an economy tune and value engineering... and they are doing poorly at it.

As an example... Saving a few MPG has made the 5th Gen 4Runner gutless and a poor driving experience when compared to its 4th Gen counterpart.

 

[hayde89]

Anyone who follows the truck knows that it's not the whole story...

The frame bending issue was due to new buyers playing BJ Baldwin Trophy truck time... going for jumps, catching air, and the wildly aggressive drivers who pushed the platform to the limits. That's how it got that reputation. If you did the same with any other production truck it would have happened to them too.

The Gen 2 Raptors frame has been so freakin beefed up and reinforced that they are literally publicly saying that you won't bend it. On top of that, it's the first time I have seen a production manufacture design for the application that aggressive. They actually took into account people wanting to huck these things and get air and built something for "the people".

Really... just watch this. This guy is literally driving around in my backyard... or at least where I like to go play sometimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ct4PwI7FGA

I've said it before and ill say it again, I don't buy the first of anything, but as of right now, there isn't a single production truck that can do what the Raptor can do.



I'm not talking about their regular trucks or cars here, lets talk TRD/Pro vs SVT/RS... Ford seems to have the attitude of actually engineering for performance driven applications.

Look at the Focus RS... show me another production hot hatch that beats it? That thing is literally a beast for what it is, straight up production rally car.

Toyota is leaning towards an economy tune and value engineering... and they are doing poorly at it.

As an example... Saving a few MPG has made the 5th Gen 4Runner gutless and a poor driving experience when compared to its 4th Gen counterpart.

VW GOLF R DSG beats the Focus RS I'm just busting your balls man. I am over on VWVORTEX too and this comes up all the time.

 

[-JD-]

I'm not talking about their regular trucks or cars here, lets talk TRD/Pro vs SVT/RS... Ford seems to have the attitude of actually engineering for performance driven applications.

Look at the Focus RS... show me another production hot hatch that beats it? That thing is literally a beast for what it is, straight up production rally car.

How do the price tags compare?

Seems like an unfair comparison to me. Ford is obviously building a specialized model targeted at a specific demo. Toyota (and the regular F150) are targeting a different demo.

If your point is that the TRD option is nothing but a minor suspension upgrade and some badging, I agree.

I dont disagree that Toyota is falling behind in some ways, but I dont think the gap is as wide as some people make it out to be.


Tundra getting air without bending its frame...

 

[Thai]

How do the price tags compare?

Seems like an unfair comparison to me. Ford is obviously building a specialized model targeted at a specific demo. Toyota (and the regular F150) are targeting a different demo.

If your point is that the TRD option is nothing but a minor suspension upgrade and some badging, I agree.

I dont disagree that Toyota is falling behind in some ways, but I dont think the gap is as wide as some people make it out to be.


Tundra getting air without bending its frame...

Tundra vs. F150...i am not so sure that you have much of an argument favoring Tundra....

 

[-JD-]

Tundra vs. F150...i am not so sure that you have much of an argument favoring Tundra....

But what I said was that the gap wasn't as wide as some ppl think. Not that the Tundra was better. Add in the somewhat intangible Toyota QDR and I can see why people still buy the Tundra.