Gas operated vehicles

[gamefreakgc]

I don't understand why you think everyone who wants an EV would have one and demand would disappear?

Are you suggesting that the majority of consumers care about ICE vs electric beyond being concerned about having a place to charge, and possibly range anxiety? If those are overcome which I expect is likely in the next 15 years then I don't see a huge percentage of the population caring all that much about the transition.

Or are you suggesting that once someone buys a car they don't ever have need to go buy another one?

As far as your question about an all electric Jeep and charging stations on the Rubicon trail, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the times are changing.

That's both absolutely hilarious and very sad about the Rubicon charging station! So much for untouched wilderness huh. Well, it looks like Jeep really is trying to make it work! Just like the all electric Hummer that's coming out soon, they are making a go at making off-roading electric.

No, range anxiety isn't much of a thing anymore that I have seen. Gone are the days of the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Spark with sub 100 mile range. There's even a charging station at the grocery store right next to my house.
The reason why I think the state won't go 100% electric for new car says is that the excitement will lose momentum. If you recall back to when hybrids were new and the Toyota Echo/Prius entered the scene people were excited to own one because it was new tech. Manufacturers were scrambling to develop hybrid tech but many ended up buying Toyota's to get their cars to market faster. I own a Nissan Altima hybrid and it's got a Toyota hybrid engine and powertrain in it.

After a while, everyone who wanted a hybrid, had a hybrid. Prius sales have dropped dramatically in recent years. Everyone who wanted on has one and yes, they do replace them with new ones but the point I'm trying to make is they only captured so much of the total market. I believe the same will happen with electric cars. There's been 10,000's of pre-sales for Teslas over the past few years because people are excited about the new technology. But will Tesla go the way of the Prius and become "boring" and people lose the excitement over electric cars? I believe so.

Personally, I think hydrogen cars have a bright future as it would be a simpler transition to turn gas stations into hydrogen stations (as opposed to converting them to electric charging stations). But there's little excitement about hydrogen so it may not catch on.

This is all just speculation and my opinion. Your opinion will vary and I hope it does as if we all thought the same and did the same this would be a very bland and boring world!

 

[TheShowtime]

I don’t know how they will have a charging port for everyone that lives in the city, apartments, skyscrapers. California can’t even keep houses powered with electricity.

 

[brillo_76]

That's both absolutely hilarious and very sad about the Rubicon charging station! So much for untouched wilderness huh. Well, it looks like Jeep really is trying to make it work! Just like the all electric Hummer that's coming out soon, they are making a go at making off-roading electric.



No, range anxiety isn't much of a thing anymore that I have seen. Gone are the days of the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Spark with sub 100 mile range. There's even a charging station at the grocery store right next to my house.

The reason why I think the state won't go 100% electric for new car says is that the excitement will lose momentum. If you recall back to when hybrids were new and the Toyota Echo/Prius entered the scene people were excited to own one because it was new tech. Manufacturers were scrambling to develop hybrid tech but many ended up buying Toyota's to get their cars to market faster. I own a Nissan Altima hybrid and it's got a Toyota hybrid engine and powertrain in it.



After a while, everyone who wanted a hybrid, had a hybrid. Prius sales have dropped dramatically in recent years. Everyone who wanted on has one and yes, they do replace them with new ones but the point I'm trying to make is they only captured so much of the total market. I believe the same will happen with electric cars. There's been 10,000's of pre-sales for Teslas over the past few years because people are excited about the new technology. But will Tesla go the way of the Prius and become "boring" and people lose the excitement over electric cars? I believe so.



Personally, I think hydrogen cars have a bright future as it would be a simpler transition to turn gas stations into hydrogen stations (as opposed to converting them to electric charging stations). But there's little excitement about hydrogen so it may not catch on.



This is all just speculation and my opinion. Your opinion will vary and I hope it does as if we all thought the same and did the same this would be a very bland and boring world!

I agree hydrogen is the next jump. Toyota and Honda have been researching it for years. Hybrid and electric vehicles will be a bridge gap to alternative energy vehicles.

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[jross20]

I heard California’s trying to phase out all gas powered vehicles by 2035. Do you guys think eventually the whole country will do that? I’m scared that will happen. I do not want to drive a silent electric car!

Lol no. while they're already on this path, this is just another thing that's going to cripple their economy.

Really hoping that this electric vehicle fad dies down soon so we can get back to reality.

We already have enough trash in landfills, we don't need it to be full of batteries. Batteries that are very difficult to recycle already, much less is anyone who wants electric cars going to fork out the money or effort to recycle them. Next, the massive increase in electrical needs to charge all those cars that would result in higher co2 emissions. Where does most of our juice come from? Coal.
For some reason a lot of environmentalists are not on board with nuclear, so none of that's going to improve anytime soon. Wind and solar, while useful sometimes, are pathetic and the grand scheme of things...

Nuclear is the future, it's what we should be focusing on. Not toy cars slap full of dangerous chemicals. Lol

 

[jross20]

I don’t know how they will have a charging port for everyone that lives in the city, apartments, skyscrapers. California can’t even keep houses powered with electricity.

Lol I just thought about that.

"Hey guys can you turn off your ac and not charge your cars this week? We closed down another one of those evil nuclear reactors! So rejoice!"

 

[brillo_76]

On the nuclear side of things. A scientist in Europe found a way to use lasers to shorten half life of nuclear waste to 18 months to perfectly safe. If this gets perfected. Nuclear waste will be a thing of the past.

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[mikeferg]

Why don't they try to resolve the homeless problem first, its everywhere there and it looks terrible

 

[ElectroBoy]

This is a great thread. Lots of good ideas and observations about the problems of introducing any new emerging technology. I’m sure there were similar discussions and complaints when gas powered cars overtook horses for transportation.

And speaking about space flight, the goal of reaching the moon in the 1960s made it necessary to create new supporting technologies to make it possible, like electronics, materials, adhesives, alloys. And Velcro! Can you imagine trying to stuff a bunch of vacuum tubes in a space capsule? The technology did not exist at the time the moon landing goal was set. Nor was the understanding of some aspects of orbital mechanics or low gravity effects, or vacuum effects on materials.

At the time I remember the protests: “Why are we spending billions going to the moon when we have all these problems on earth? Poverty, racial tension, homelessness, infrastructure, war, etc, etc.” Well, we still have all those problems today. Should we not reach for goals until we solve all other issues? We should be able to multi-task.

You have a goal, sometimes politically created, push ahead, early success, find problems, develop solutions, push ahead, find problems, etc., rinse and repeat. Just like the development of any new electronic gizmo we all have in our homes or hands. Only on a larger scale.

 

[gamefreakgc]

Lol I just thought about that.

"Hey guys can you turn off your ac and not charge your cars this week? We closed down another one of those evil nuclear reactors! So rejoice!"

I can't tell you how many times I've said I'm happy not to be on PG&E. Lots of my friends are and they have their power cut often in 100 degree heat. Fun times. Not to mention they charge 2-3 times the costs of smaller power companies in the area like SMUD and Roseville Electric.

Nuclear has tons of potential but we've yet learned how to make them disaster proof. Just when they were catching on again after Chernobyl the Fukushima plant melted down during the tsunami. I'm not sure governments want to even touch nuclear now, it's so unpopular. For the record, I grew up 10 miles from a nuclear power plant and I felt safe near it. But we did live on a major earthquake fault so there was always a chance it could be damaged in a major quake.

The energy industry is such a complex puzzle. There's no one-size fits all for every part of the US.

 

[ElectroBoy]

Lol no. while they're already on this path, this is just another thing that's going to cripple their economy.

Really hoping that this electric vehicle fad dies down soon so we can get back to reality.

We already have enough trash in landfills, we don't need it to be full of batteries. Batteries that are very difficult to recycle already, much less is anyone who wants electric cars going to fork out the money or effort to recycle them. Next, the massive increase in electrical needs to charge all those cars that would result in higher co2 emissions. Where does most of our juice come from? Coal.
For some reason a lot of environmentalists are not on board with nuclear, so none of that's going to improve anytime soon. Wind and solar, while useful sometimes, are pathetic and the grand scheme of things...

Nuclear is the future, it's what we should be focusing on. Not toy cars slap full of dangerous chemicals. Lol

Actually, most of the electricity in the US is now generated by burning natural gas. Coal use is decreasing.
But yeah, nuclear needs to get more attention.

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

[jross20]

Actually, most of the electricity in the US is now generated by burning natural gas. Coal use is decreasing.
But yeah, nuclear needs to get more attention.

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Coal, natural gas, same group to me haha.:tongue:

But yes, nuclear is the future. Honestly I wish they would stop wasting fossil fuels on power so we can save it for vehicles.

All hail the power of the atom!

 

[jross20]

As battery energy density continues to rise EV will take more market share.

if life has shown me anything: it's that people are lazy and something that costs less and is easier to use will win out. convenience wins for the mass of people.

charging stations have shown up at the Target store by my house already. Plug your tesla in while you grab your target run. it's real and it's happening. I personally know 2 people who own tesla's and they say they will never go back to ICE.

the other thing it has shown me is that markets are diverse, way more diverse than most people believe. back in the 1970's there was one kind of spaghetti sauce. only one god dam sauce, but today there are 30-40 different kinds. This market fragmentation will continue and making generalizations will never hold 100% of the time. This will be the case with transportation going forward. it might take another 30-40 years to sunset ICE but it will happen in most of the US light car/truck domestic market.

Don't hold out on battery capacity. It's going to be extremely difficult to get much more capacity without turning them into mega bombs. Lithium batteries are already pretty dangerous, imagine one with twice the capacity? Twice the boom! But in all seriousness, battery tech is just about maxed out.
:flame:

And... thinking about it just now... isn't the average ICE only up to 20% efficient? Imagine if they got them up to 40-60%? I beleive the theroetical maximum for ICE's is like 80%. ICE's will probably have a heavy hitting come back as their efficiencies improve. In fact, if they improved enough it may flip everything. Imagine electric ones with their expensive/dangerous/limited life batteries become less desirable and people talking about new super efficient ICE's.

Imagine a 4Runner with around 270hp but with 32 mpg city / 38 mpg hwy fuel economy and something like an 700+ mile range.
All for about the same cost as they are now. Something like that would KO electric cars out of the ring. And that's a theoretical increase from say 20% to 40%, or roughly double. Imagine what it would be like at 50% or 60%? Oh shit there is so much more power to pull from a single gallon of gas.
:behindsofa:

I imagine some automakers and oil companies will be pushing ICE's thermal efficiencies to keep in the game. Hey, if this gives us more power and economy then I'm down. Competition rules!

 

[ElectroBoy]

Predictions of the limitations of technology are usually wrong. Battery research is continuing, such as trying to find alternatives to cobalt in the mix. Tesla’s still researching and getting patents.
Tesla’s New Lithium-Ion Patent Brings Company Closer to Promised 1 Million-Mile Battery

 

[pluton]

There's a Chevron station just down the street from me that has a hydrogen kiosk. Every time I drive past---which is often---and there's someone filling their Toyota Mirai car with Hydrogen, I say to myself, out loud, in a cheery voice: 'Hope she don't blow!'

 

[sleepydad]

Don't hold out on battery capacity. It's going to be extremely difficult to get much more capacity without turning them into mega bombs. Lithium batteries are already pretty dangerous, imagine one with twice the capacity? Twice the boom! But in all seriousness, battery tech is just about maxed out.
:flame:

And... thinking about it just now... isn't the average ICE only up to 20% efficient? Imagine if they got them up to 40-60%? I beleive the theroetical maximum for ICE's is like 80%. ICE's will probably have a heavy hitting come back as their efficiencies improve. In fact, if they improved enough it may flip everything. Imagine electric ones with their expensive/dangerous/limited life batteries become less desirable and people talking about new super efficient ICE's.

Imagine a 4Runner with around 270hp but with 32 mpg city / 38 mpg hwy fuel economy and something like an 700+ mile range.
All for about the same cost as they are now. Something like that would KO electric cars out of the ring. And that's a theoretical increase from say 20% to 40%, or roughly double. Imagine what it would be like at 50% or 60%? Oh shit there is so much more power to pull from a single gallon of gas.
:behindsofa:

I imagine some automakers and oil companies will be pushing ICE's thermal efficiencies to keep in the game. Hey, if this gives us more power and economy then I'm down. Competition rules!

in the event of an accident/damage either lithium batteries or gasoline can be dangerous. yes when you stuff a bunch of energy into a small space it can come out in unexpected ways. But don't give me the batteries are dangerous BS of course they are, oil drilling is dangerous, lithium mining is dangerous, oil tankers leak or crash, pipelines leak or burst, tanker trucks have accidents and explode, refineries have accidents.... inherent risk is everywhere.

we know the efficiency % for most types of engines, extensive R&D has been done. if we really cared we would be driving around in gas turbine powered vehicles.

if solving the thermal efficiency problem was easy it would have been done. gas driven ICE engines are terrible, but initial cost is cheap and they are easy to maintain. GDI was a step in the right direction.

I agree competition is good. Otherwise the ICE people would just sit on the arse drinking beer and watching shark week.

 

[jross20]

in the event of an accident/damage either lithium batteries or gasoline can be dangerous. yes when you stuff a bunch of energy into a small space it can come out in unexpected ways. But don't give me the batteries are dangerous BS of course they are, oil drilling is dangerous, lithium mining is dangerous, oil tankers leak or crash, pipelines leak or burst, tanker trucks have accidents and explode, refineries have accidents.... inherent risk is everywhere.

we know the efficiency % for most types of engines, extensive R&D has been done. if we really cared we would be driving around in gas turbine powered vehicles.

if solving the thermal efficiency problem was easy it would have been done. gas driven ICE engines are terrible, but initial cost is cheap and they are easy to maintain. GDI was a step in the right direction.

I agree competition is good. Otherwise the ICE people would just sit on the arse drinking beer and watching shark week.

Generally agreed, except that batteries do some with an extra cost that most people never mention. The waste. What do you do with the old batteries? Most people will never recycle them unless they are forced to, and it is expensive. These things aren't going to last more than a few years for most people since, as everyone forgets the hunen element, people don't generally drive light footed but especially if the car is fast. So this will kill the batteries even faster. Not to mention certian weather conditions and the geographical location. But I digress, even if they last 10 years... We will have a growing issue.

So my worry is we end up with a shit ton of chemical waste at the end of each battery's life that will never be properly processed.

Oil and lithium both have to be extracted, but once gas is ready to use you don't have to recycle it later. You just use it. The battery doesn't go away, haha

Something I would love to see is if someone came up with a use for co2. Imagine a huge demand for it and companies building machines to pull it from the air to use it. I've no idea what it would be, maybe split the molecules to extract carbon for graphene and shit. Who knows.

Basically if we could just manually control the co2 content in the air. Create something to profit from and people will do it.

But hey, in the end, if a lot of people switch it's just more gas for us I reckon
:beer:

 

[sleepydad]

Generally agreed, except that batteries do some with an extra cost that most people never mention. The waste. What do you do with the old batteries? Most people will never recycle them unless they are forced to, and it is expensive. These things aren't going to last more than a few years for most people since, as everyone forgets the hunen element, people don't generally drive light footed but especially if the car is fast. So this will kill the batteries even faster. Not to mention certian weather conditions and the geographical location. But I digress, even if they last 10 years... We will have a growing issue.

So my worry is we end up with a shit ton of chemical waste at the end of each battery's life that will never be properly processed.

Oil and lithium both have to be extracted, but once gas is ready to use you don't have to recycle it later. You just use it. The battery doesn't go away, haha

Something I would love to see is if someone came up with a use for co2. Imagine a huge demand for it and companies building machines to pull it from the air to use it. I've no idea what it would be, maybe split the molecules to extract carbon for graphene and shit. Who knows.

Basically if we could just manually control the co2 content in the air. Create something to profit from and people will do it.

But hey, in the end, if a lot of people switch it's just more gas for us I reckon
:beer:

I was going to reply with something interesting but I just saw that Eddie Van Halen died. RIP Eddie

 

[ElectroBoy]

Generally agreed, except that batteries do some with an extra cost that most people never mention. The waste. What do you do with the old batteries? Most people will never recycle them unless they are forced to, and it is expensive. These things aren't going to last more than a few years for most people since, as everyone forgets the hunen element, people don't generally drive light footed but especially if the car is fast. So this will kill the batteries even faster. Not to mention certian weather conditions and the geographical location. But I digress, even if they last 10 years... We will have a growing issue.

So my worry is we end up with a shit ton of chemical waste at the end of each battery's life that will never be properly processed.

Oil and lithium both have to be extracted, but once gas is ready to use you don't have to recycle it later. You just use it. The battery doesn't go away, haha

Something I would love to see is if someone came up with a use for co2. Imagine a huge demand for it and companies building machines to pull it from the air to use it. I've no idea what it would be, maybe split the molecules to extract carbon for graphene and shit. Who knows.

Basically if we could just manually control the co2 content in the air. Create something to profit from and people will do it.

But hey, in the end, if a lot of people switch it's just more gas for us I reckon
:beer:

Is there something about lithium batteries that makes it impossible to recycle and extract the lithium and other materials for re-use?

These batteries weigh many hundred of pounds. Not exactly a DYI undertaking even if consumers could buy them. It would be like Tesla does, you go to them, they install a new battery pack, they recycle it, you drive away.

Last time I bought an automotive lead-acid battery I returned the old one to get my $20 back. That’s the incentive not to dump it.
How to Recycle Lead-Acid Batteries – RecycleNation

 

[BigTuna02]

I think that it's going to be a long time until gas powered vehicles are phased out. While we're starting to see Tesla's appear on the roads, we've still got a long way to go.

 

[jross20]

Is there something about lithium batteries that makes it impossible to recycle and extract the lithium and other materials for re-use?

These batteries weigh many hundred of pounds. Not exactly a DYI undertaking even if consumers could buy them. It would be like Tesla does, you go to them, they install a new battery pack, they recycle it, you drive away.

Last time I bought an automotive lead-acid battery I returned the old one to get my $20 back. That’s the incentive not to dump it.
How to Recycle Lead-Acid Batteries – RecycleNation

My understanding is it is not cheap to recycle lithium batteries. It isn't just lithium but other chemicals and the complexity of them. I'm not sure what the market name is for it, but it costs more to recycle them the they are worth unlike some other materials.