GM leading the way with EVs. No more gas cars by 2035. Can Toyota be far behind?

[thennen]

Electrified rails in one lane of a road would be an option.
Hop into the lane to charge, hop out when you need to go your own way.
But what will we be paving our roads with if not oil?
Roofing materials?

RAC?
Rubberized Asphalt Concrete (RAC)

I wonder about the electrified rail idea. A Tesla model 3 charges at 32 amps, I believe. Not sure at which voltage. Haven’t researched a lot. But if that’s true, and you’re driving, you need to get more from that rail than you’re using in order to gain battery charge. So you need to subtract rate of usage from rate of charge. If usage exceeds charge rate, you won’t charge the battery, though you might extend your range.

Then there’s the problem that everyone will be trying to ride that rail. Could a rail provide enough current for hundreds of cars at once? Can it be done without physical contact with the rail? Can power plants keep up? Lotta questions that I’m not qualified to answer.

 

[Ray Dunakin]

Ever driven a Tesla? It’s a kick.
You’ve probably seen this already but...

Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat vs Tesla Model 3

“The Hellcat has 707 hp and 650 lb-ft of torque, making it, according to Dodge, the most powerful 5-seat production car ever, based on horsepower.
The Model 3 Performance has 450 hp, and 471 lb-ft of torque.”

Check out the race.
Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat vs Tesla Model 3 Performance: Video Drag Race

Who cares?? None of that is relevant to practicality. Show me an EV that goes from near-zero charge to full charge in five minutes or less, then maybe I'll be impressed.


Also, there's more to practicality than just the vehicle itself. Other issues affecting practicality are the (lack of) infrastructure, the major technical problems of creating a system capable of recharging an EV in minutes vs. hours, and the need for new sources of energy to supply hundreds of millions of vehicles in addition to our existing residential and industrial uses of energy.


Yes, EVs are sufficient transportation for some people. So what? Everyone's needs are not all the same. It doesn't matter if GM puts out a truck-shaped or SUV-shaped EV. Unless those vehicles can do everything an ICE truck or SUV does, it's not going to meet the needs of people who want the capabilities of a truck or SUV.

 

[ElectroBoy]

Who cares?? None of that is relevant to practicality. Show me an EV that goes from near-zero charge to full charge in five minutes or less, then maybe I'll be impressed.


Also, there's more to practicality than just the vehicle itself. Other issues affecting practicality are the (lack of) infrastructure, the major technical problems of creating a system capable of recharging an EV in minutes vs. hours, and the need for new sources of energy to supply hundreds of millions of vehicles in addition to our existing residential and industrial uses of energy.


Yes, EVs are sufficient transportation for some people. So what? Everyone's needs are not all the same. It doesn't matter if GM puts out a truck-shaped or SUV-shaped EV. Unless those vehicles can do everything an ICE truck or SUV does, it's not going to meet the needs of people who want the capabilities of a truck or SUV.

Nobody is forcing anybody to buy EVs. ICE vehicles will be around for all of our lifetimes. Oil companies will still sell gasoline. No need to fear change. It will be gradual.

Technology is not static. Battery technology will improve. Charging times will decrease and capacity will increase. I don’t know about you, but I don’t drive for more than about 4 hours at a time before bathroom breaks and meal stops. That will be enough time to top off a battery for many miles until your next break. Lots of hotels already have charging stations that you can plug into overnight. There are charging stations all over the US and there will be more. You can search the web for locations and plan your trip with apps.

If you’re out in the wilderness in an EV SUV and you’re worried, make the mod to carry a small Honda generator to charge while you’re camping. People already are rigging their vehicles to carry gasoline packs.

The big ass GM Hummer that is coming out next year will get over 350 miles on a charge. And they say in 10 minutes it will get enough fast charge to go 100 miles. I think Toyota can match or beat that technology. Right now in 30 minutes a Tesla supercharger will get you 170 miles.

Our road, bridge, power system infrastructure is in shambles in many parts of our country. It’s going to take money and time to make improvements. Any new electric vehicle infrastructure will be part of that build out.

It was a hell of a challenge going from horse and buggy to automobiles, with roads, interstates, refineries, pipelines, tires, service facilities, dealerships, gas stations...
but we did it. You think America can’t figure this EV thing out?

 

[Flyer]

Battery tech is advancing quite a bit. The next 5 years will be absolutely transformative. If we are seeing ranges of 300+ now, 400-500 and super fast charges are not far behind. Plus, I suspect there will be more efficient on-board charging while driving. It is happening. Nobody is going to stop it. Oil companies no longer have the power to slow things down either. It isn't for lack of trying in the past, similar to tobacco companies. Heck, in Oklahoma and Kansas, oil companies even dictated part of the curriculum and lessons plans. Talk about corruption. I would never have believed that if I hadn't done my undergrad in that hellhole.

Nobody is forcing anybody to buy EVs. ICE vehicles will be around for all of our lifetimes. Oil companies will still sell gasoline. No need to fear change. It will be gradual.

Technology is not static. Battery technology will improve. Charging times will decrease and capacity will increase. I don’t know about you, but I don’t drive for more than about 4 hours at a time before bathroom breaks and meal stops. That will be enough time to top off a battery for many miles until your next break. Lots of hotels already have charging stations that you can plug into overnight. There are charging stations all over the US and there will be more. You can search the web for locations and plan your trip with apps.

If you’re out in the wilderness in an EV SUV and you’re worried, make the mod to carry a small Honda generator to charge while you’re camping. People already are rigging their vehicles to carry gasoline packs.

The big ass GM Hummer that is coming out next year will get over 350 miles on a charge. And they say in 10 minutes it will get enough fast charge to go 100 miles. I think Toyota can match or beat that technology. Right now in 30 minutes a Tesla supercharger will get you 170 miles.

Our road, bridge, power system infrastructure is in shambles in many parts of our country. It’s going to take money and time to make improvements. Any new electric vehicle infrastructure will be part of that build out.

It was a hell of a challenge going from horse and buggy to automobiles, with roads, interstates, refineries, pipelines, tires, service facilities, dealerships, gas stations...
but we did it. You think America can’t figure this EV thing out?

 

[Ogre75]

Nobody is forcing anybody to buy EVs. ICE vehicles will be around for all of our lifetimes. Oil companies will still sell gasoline. No need to fear change. It will be gradual.

Technology is not static. Battery technology will improve. Charging times will decrease and capacity will increase. I don’t know about you, but I don’t drive for more than about 4 hours at a time before bathroom breaks and meal stops. That will be enough time to top off a battery for many miles until your next break. Lots of hotels already have charging stations that you can plug into overnight. There are charging stations all over the US and there will be more. You can search the web for locations and plan your trip with apps.

If you’re out in the wilderness in an EV SUV and you’re worried, make the mod to carry a small Honda generator to charge while you’re camping. People already are rigging their vehicles to carry gasoline packs.

The big ass GM Hummer that is coming out next year will get over 350 miles on a charge. And they say in 10 minutes it will get enough fast charge to go 100 miles. I think Toyota can match or beat that technology. Right now in 30 minutes a Tesla supercharger will get you 170 miles.

Our road, bridge, power system infrastructure is in shambles in many parts of our country. It’s going to take money and time to make improvements. Any new electric vehicle infrastructure will be part of that build out.

It was a hell of a challenge going from horse and buggy to automobiles, with roads, interstates, refineries, pipelines, tires, service facilities, dealerships, gas stations...
but we did it. You think America can’t figure this EV thing out?

The Horse and buggy didn't lose favor because it was mandated by governments and bureaucratic regulations, or tax incentives, either positive or punitive. Cars dominated because it was a clear, gainful leap forward in convenience and technology. When EV's hit that point, ICE could go the way of the horse and buggy.

 

[thennen]

The Horse and buggy didn't lose favor because it was mandated by governments and bureaucratic regulations, or tax incentives, either positive or punitive. Cars dominated because it was a clear, gainful leap forward in convenience and technology. When EV's hit that point, ICE could go the way of the horse and buggy.

Agreed. Changes typically go much better if people are drawn to them versus being forced into them. And not wanting to be forced into something is not 'fear of change'. It's valuing of freedom.

 

[ElectroBoy]

It seems there’s a lot of fear going around about the loss of ICE vehicles with the increased use of EVs. I understand the fear of change and government involvement in promoting change.

Going back in my own history, I remember the fear promoted by the movie industry when cable television was rolling out. There were posters in movie theaters and TV ads spreading the fear of “pay TV”. “Imagine having a coin box on your TV set where you had to insert coins every time you wanted to watch a program. Do you want this future?” People were actually whipped up and protesting cable TV.

I used to subscribe to Netflix for a bunch of DVDs to be delivered to my home each month. It was great. No more trips to Blockbuster were necessary. Then when they were going to phase out DVDs and transition to steaming there was a huge uproar. I was so pissed. Their stock price suffered. Huge outrage and protesting. Netflix had to resume the DVD delivery model for a while to calm things down.
Today, how many of us buy or even play discs? Maybe parents with DVD players in the backseat for the kids. I’ve sold or donated almost all of my discs. Almost everybody is streaming in hi def and look how many streaming services there are, no loss of jobs or business there.

Before a lot of forum members were born the US business model was mainframe IBM or DEC VAX computers. And everyone in the business had a remote terminal in their office. Fast forward when Apple computer and PCs were thought of as hobbiest toys, they’d never replace good old reliable mainframes. Businesses were afraid and resistant for a long time, but they incorporated them slowly into their networks, first as design tools for engineers, then as they became cheaper and more reliable, throughout the enterprise. Eventually mainframes were mostly used for payroll processing and inventory management. Now people routinely work remotely on their PCs and mobile devices, even before this pandemic crisis.

There was big pushback on mandatory seatbelts in cars. Then government regulations and fines for not wearing them. Everybody wanted the freedom of choice. Does anyone actually complain about this anymore?

There was pushback from OEMs for airbags mandated in cars. How many of us have experienced or know someone saved by airbags? Not perfected yet, Takata, but a good change.

Mandatory motorcycle helmets in some states were protested like hell about freedom. Now the Harley riders wear cool looking half helmets.

How about rural electrification or the phone system? Utilities wouldn’t have done this on their own without being mandated.

There are many other examples of the fear of the march of technology. Or that the government is forcing change to improve the condition of society against our will. Or whether it costs too much or will make me change the way I do things. Whether it’s government mandated or through capitalistic industry.
For the most part it’s been good in the long run. And a lot of things that changed for the better wouldn’t have happened unless it was mandated.

The only bad thing that comes to my mind is that kids sit on their butts too long, glued to their screens instead of playing outside

 

[BobWheelerJr]

Forget it...

1) My getaway property is on an Ozark mountaintop, 35 miles from the nearest city that's larger than 450 people. We're glad to have an overpriced gas station. We'll be the last people on the planet to get charging stations.

2) In the winter power goes out on the mountain for 2-4 weeks at a time, and we survive on a generator. I'm not hooking an EV up to my home generator.

They can ask for my gas-powered vehicles when the ask for my guns... of course, they'll have to try to get the guns before they can have the vehicles.

 

[Nobody Special]

The Horse and buggy didn't lose favor because it was mandated by governments and bureaucratic regulations, or tax incentives, either positive or punitive. Cars dominated because it was a clear, gainful leap forward in convenience and technology. When EV's hit that point, ICE could go the way of the horse and buggy.

Meaning the Amish (etc) will upgrade to ICE's?

 

[Ray Dunakin]

It seems there’s a lot of fear going around about the loss of ICE vehicles with the increased use of EVs. I understand the fear of change and government involvement in promoting change.

Americans love technological progress. Such progress has obvious advantages over existing tech, and improves our lives.

EVs are not progress. They are inferior to existing tech, and have no real advantages that would make life easier or more convenient. Rather, they are purely intended to meet an ideological goal, and not the needs of the consumer.

Even IF batteries might someday be developed that are capable of truly rapid charging, that only solves part of the problem.

Currently there are over 273 million registered vehicles in the US. Where is the electrical energy to power that many vehicles going to come from? Or even 100 million? Here in CA we can't even reliably keep the power on to our homes, and it's going to get much worse as our leftist leaders force the shut down of traditional power sources.

But even if we had batteries capable of rapid charging, and the additional power sources to charge them, there is still one more issue:

An EV capable of traveling 500 kilometers on a single charge would require 100 kilowatt-hours of battery. To recharge such a battery in the time it takes to fill a gas tank, say about two and a half minutes, requires 3 MEGAWATTS of electricity.

Three megawatts is huge, and dangerous. The 350 KILOwatt chargers that were developed by Porsche generate so much heat that the cables have to be liquid-cooled. Three megawatts is almost nine times more power.

For more details about this problem:

Motor Mouth: More inconvenient truths on banning gas engines | Driving

 

[ElectroBoy]

I think the most likely outcome for success is what the author of that article says in the last paragraph. Use electrics for city and short distance travel. For long distance cross country traveling use your ICE vehicle.

 

[Ogre75]

I think the most likely outcome for success is what the author of that article says in the last paragraph. Use electrics for city and short distance travel. For long distance cross country traveling use your ICE vehicle.

This is a common sense approach. That said, some state governments are quickly moving toward an all EV mandate. Eventually, unless people start going out of state to buy their ICE vehicles for long distance travel, California will look like Cuba with grandfathered in ICE vehicles. lol

 

[Flyer]

Some here sound like those poor saps extolling the virtues of "clean coal":flypig:

 

[Nobody Special]

I wonder about the electrified rail idea. A Tesla model 3 charges at 32 amps, I believe. Not sure at which voltage. Haven’t researched a lot. But if that’s true, and you’re driving, you need to get more from that rail than you’re using in order to gain battery charge. So you need to subtract rate of usage from rate of charge. If usage exceeds charge rate, you won’t charge the battery, though you might extend your range.

Then there’s the problem that everyone will be trying to ride that rail. Could a rail provide enough current for hundreds of cars at once? Can it be done without physical contact with the rail? Can power plants keep up? Lotta questions that I’m not qualified to answer.

Pave roads in solar panels. :hail:
Might as well put the radiation to work rather than having a black road simply soak all the radiation up.



Yeah, there is a lot there to work out.
It would be on circuits, think like a MAG-LEV train how it switches on and off in sections, but the electric will come from separate circuits.
Then you run into a HOT day, and people plugging in all pretty much around the same time when they get home from work.
Unless plates that end in even numbers charge on certain days or times of day... Like the gas crunch in the 70's.

 

[Ray Dunakin]

One more thing to consider...

Everyone likes to gripe about the oil companies and the price of gas, but at least gas prices and availability are not 100% controlled by the government. Electricity is, and there's no real competition either. The government's interests are in opposition to the consumer's interests. It's bad enough having the government meddling in our utility in our homes, I sure don't want to be dependent on them for my car too.

 

[thennen]

When a governor assumes the power to mandate which type of fuel is allowed for travel within his state, to the extent that he says he’ll ban the sales of the types of vehicle currently in use, he’s assumed too much power. If people are wanting the new type of vehicle, a mandate won’t be necessary. If they don’t want it, then what happens?

 

[ElectroBoy]

When a governor assumes the power to mandate which type of fuel is allowed for travel within his state, to the extent that he says he’ll ban the sales of the types of vehicle currently in use, he’s assumed too much power. If people are wanting the new type of vehicle, a mandate won’t be necessary. If they don’t want it, then what happens?

I’m not so sure about the governor’s power, after all it’s an executive order that could be reversed by a subsequent governor. But California was given the power by Congress in 1967 to set its own emission standards higher than the federal standards. Remember LA? It had some of the worst air in the world from the 1940s into the 1970s and beyond.

Lots of battles blamed auto exhaust as a big culprit of smog, the public demanded anti-smog technology, pushback from the auto and oil industries until finally there was undeniable scientific proof. Then several Clean Air Acts set emission standards by Congress. The Justice Dept sued auto manufactures for delaying anti-smog devices in 1969. The Clean Air Act of 1970 version was the biggest that made national standards and really made a difference. In 1975 new cars were required to have catalytic converters. Since then LA air is a whole lot better, not great, but better. And the air is better in other US cities.

So, CA can make regulations about what can be sold in its state to take care of its air, we’ll see what happens. There will probably be lawsuits but it may be easier for auto makers to just make more and cheaper EVs and see how willingly the public accepts them. ICE will not be outlawed as some fear. The installed base is just too tremendous to not support them for many decades.

The plan is to not sell new gasoline cars in CA after 2035. Existing ones can be bought and sold as used cars. No word yet on importing cars from other states.

 

[mscot]

Plus there are exemptions for farm, construction, and other segments. Those will require support, and everyone that wants a truck will become a contractor so...

 

[LandCruiser]

The only electric car right now that isn’t a steaming pile of donkey shit is the Porsche Taycan.

If I had that kind of money laying around for another Porsche, it would still be at the bottom of the list to buy.

 

[Flyer]

Who on earth is going to ask for some crappy guns and old 4Runners?

1) My getaway property is on an Ozark mountaintop, 35 miles from the nearest city that's larger than 450 people. We're glad to have an overpriced gas station. We'll be the last people on the planet to get charging stations.

2) In the winter power goes out on the mountain for 2-4 weeks at a time, and we survive on a generator. I'm not hooking an EV up to my home generator.

They can ask for my gas-powered vehicles when the ask for my guns... of course, they'll have to try to get the guns before they can have the vehicles.