Headlights won't turn on…where are my electrical people?

[TheDurk]

Depending on how much you dislike ghetto and like the cheap fix, no matter how things turn out, you can always wire up your lights to a dash switch, putting the switch between ground and Terminal 8.

 

[Fishwerks]

Shorting Terminal 13 to ground does nothing, I can't hear the relay click like when I short Terminal 8 to ground. Also, I just re-tested shorting Terminal 8 to ground and it activates high beams only (blue light on the dash comes on). Earlier it was allowing LOWS to come on and constant HIGH as well, I'm 90% that is what it was doing anyways.

When I jumper Terminal 8 to Terminal 13, constant HIGH comes on also.

That 2002 wiring diagram has a couple different wire colors than the 2000, so I think some of the trouble shooting I did based on wire colors was not done correctly. I have a 2000 diagram now (posted below), so I will redo the jumper @ the DRL relay to see what effect it has.

Here is where I got the 2000 wiring diagram from - http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/158683-2000-4runner-headlight-diagram-2.html#post1587317

 

[IBallEngineer]

Shorting Terminal 13 to ground does nothing, I can't hear the relay click like when I short Terminal 8 to ground. Also, I just re-tested shorting Terminal 8 to ground and it activates high beams only (blue light on the dash comes on). Earlier it was allowing LOWS to come on and constant HIGH as well, I'm 90% that is what it was doing anyways.

When I jumper Terminal 8 to Terminal 13, constant HIGH comes on also.

That 2002 wiring diagram has a couple different wire colors than the 2000, so I think some of the trouble shooting I did based on wire colors was not done correctly. I have a 2000 diagram now (posted below), so I will redo the jumper @ the DRL relay to see what effect it has.

Here is where I got the 2000 wiring diagram from - http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/158683-2000-4runner-headlight-diagram-2.html#post1587317

I know we are throwing a lot at you, but you are doing great! But you did a few things here which may be confusing, let's try to clear it up.

1) First we need to be clear, you said grounding terminal 13 does nothing, double check and check again. If that is true, AND grounding terminal 8 operated the lights then the combination meter(cluster) has failed.

1a) Can't be wrong on terminal 8, grounding it takes both the cluster and the stalk switch out of the loop in terms of activating lights, but not in switching between high and low.

2) If grounding at 8 works, but not grounding at 13, we know the cluster isn't working but we still don't know if the switch works.

2a) The above comments apply to the wiring diagram we've been using.

3)Yes the WD you sent does have some differences. Principally term 8 on the stalk connects to 5 not 7 on the DRL relay, and instead 8 is Red/Blue and has a diode before it connects to the rest of the green wire circuit we though you tested previously. This may not be important, but what color IS the wire at term 8 on your truck?

4) If when you checked terminal 7 on the DRL that may have steered us wrong if the colors are different. The change we'd have to make is grounding the terminal 5 at the cluster, in lieu of term 8 at the stalk. PITA or Terminal 5 on the DRL, probably easier.

This really is a simple thing, don't panic, let's solve it. I think you are understanding it pretty good already!

:couch2:

 

[Fishwerks]

I know we are throwing a lot at you, but you are doing great! But you did a few things here which may be confusing, let's try to clear it up.

1) First we need to be clear, you said grounding terminal 13 does nothing, double check and check again. If that is true, AND grounding terminal 8 operated the lights then the combination meter(cluster) has failed.

1a) Can't be wrong on terminal 8, grounding it takes both the cluster and the stalk switch out of the loop in terms of activating lights, but not in switching between high and low.

2) If grounding at 8 works, but not grounding at 13, we know the cluster isn't working but we still don't know if the switch works.

2a) The above comments apply to the wiring diagram we've been using.

3)Yes the WD you sent does have some differences. Principally term 8 on the stalk connects to 5 not 7 on the DRL relay, and instead 8 is Red/Blue and has a diode before it connects to the rest of the green wire circuit we though you tested previously. This may not be important, but what color IS the wire at term 8 on your truck?

4) If when you checked terminal 7 on the DRL that may have steered us wrong if the colors are different. The change we'd have to make is grounding the terminal 5 at the cluster, in lieu of term 8 at the stalk. PITA or Terminal 5 on the DRL, probably easier.

This really is a simple thing, don't panic, let's solve it. I think you are understanding it pretty good already!

:couch2:

First on my to-do list in the morning. I'll get back to you in 12 hours or so. Thanks for the help so far! Making progress at least.

 

[TheDurk]

First on my to-do list in the morning. I'll get back to you in 12 hours or so. Thanks for the help so far! Making progress at least.

Great post by IBall. 13 is really key to understanding here. I apologize for forgetting I had just seen a 2000 EWD. I was focused on the wires, not the year. That thread just died without a resolution. DON'T you dare do that to us!...even if it is to say you wussed out and went to the dealer.

 

[Fishwerks]

Well that certainly seems to condemn the switch. Could you confirm that shorting terminal 13 at the stalk to ground turns on the headlights? And as long as you are there, ground terminal 7, that should activate Hi beams. If you still don't get lo beams with 13 grounded, ground terminal 8, this will bypass the cluster.

I'm pretty sure if you ground 13 or 7 your lights will work, otherwise you have a bad relay AND a bad switch. But we can test the switch independently of the relay if this doesn't work.

:couch2: MORE PEANUTS PLEASE

I know we are throwing a lot at you, but you are doing great! But you did a few things here which may be confusing, let's try to clear it up.

1) First we need to be clear, you said grounding terminal 13 does nothing, double check and check again. If that is true, AND grounding terminal 8 operated the lights then the combination meter(cluster) has failed.

1a) Can't be wrong on terminal 8, grounding it takes both the cluster and the stalk switch out of the loop in terms of activating lights, but not in switching between high and low.

2) If grounding at 8 works, but not grounding at 13, we know the cluster isn't working but we still don't know if the switch works.

2a) The above comments apply to the wiring diagram we've been using.

3)Yes the WD you sent does have some differences. Principally term 8 on the stalk connects to 5 not 7 on the DRL relay, and instead 8 is Red/Blue and has a diode before it connects to the rest of the green wire circuit we though you tested previously. This may not be important, but what color IS the wire at term 8 on your truck?

4) If when you checked terminal 7 on the DRL that may have steered us wrong if the colors are different. The change we'd have to make is grounding the terminal 5 at the cluster, in lieu of term 8 at the stalk. PITA or Terminal 5 on the DRL, probably easier.

This really is a simple thing, don't panic, let's solve it. I think you are understanding it pretty good already!

:couch2:

Jumpering Terminal 13 to Terminal 16 (ground) does not turn LOWs on. Jumpering Terminal 7 to Terminal 16 does not turn HIGHs on.

Grounding at Terminal 8 turns on HIGHs only no matter if the switch is OFF, HEAD, HIGH or FLASH, but it bypasses the stalk so that's what it should be doing, right?

Terminal 8 at the stalk (connector C13) is red with a blue stripe.

Gotchya. I give in. 'Tis for sure the DRL relay. I could make you take a lot of readings but I'm ready to cut to the chase, as IBall said. Can you make a jumper (temporary for now) between the red wire at Terminal 6 of the DRL main relay and the green wire at Terminal 7 of the main DRL relay.

Right at the main DRL relay is where this is probably easiest done. Those two wires will only be an inch or two apart. Do you know where it is? I can look it up if you need me to. I think this will by-pass most, maybe all of the part of the DRL that is not working. It should restore headlight function.

If you want to troubleshoot first, you can verify that the red wire has no continuity to ground when the Headlights are first turned on, and then it does after the lights are flashed. Jumping these two will cut the DRL system forever out of action by closing DRL relay #4 whenever The HEAD position is selected and will let the headlights function normally, assuming your stalk switch is still good. If that green wire has continuity to ground when stalk is at HEAD, then it is still good and this should work.

IBall, please comment.

Should I re-do this jumper, since I was on the wrong terminal before? Or do we already know the cluster is fubar'd?

 

[IBallEngineer]

on.

Grounding at Terminal 8 turns on HIGHs only no matter if the switch is OFF, HEAD, HIGH or FLASH, but it bypasses the stalk so that's what it should be doing, right?




Should I re-do this jumper, since I was on the wrong terminal before? Or do we already know the cluster is fubar'd?

Terminal 8 would allow high or low if the stalk will switch hi/lo. If it is fried, who knows.

It's pretty certain the cluster is toast, but you must FIRST confirm that term 16 is a good ground. No reason why it wouldn't be, but we must be sure. Connect one end of a test light to 12V and the other end to 16, it should light. While you are there, do the same thing to 13(with the stalk switch ON), this will tell us at least part of the switch is still good if it lights.

I'd love to have you ground terminal 5 at the DRL relay to confirm the original test of the DRL is ok.

MAN do we have a lot of posts on this!

opcorn:

 

[Fishwerks]

Terminal 8 would allow high or low if the stalk will switch hi/lo. If it is fried, who knows.

It's pretty certain the cluster is toast, but you must FIRST confirm that term 16 is a good ground. No reason why it wouldn't be, but we must be sure. Connect one end of a test light to 12V and the other end to 16, it should light. While you are there, do the same thing to 13(with the stalk switch ON), this will tell us at least part of the switch is still good if it lights.

I'd love to have you ground terminal 5 at the DRL relay to confirm the original test of the DRL is ok.

MAN do we have a lot of posts on this!

opcorn:

Testing ground at the DRL relay follows the same procedure as at Terminal 16, right? Test light to 12V and Terminal 5 at the DRL relay with it connected?

 

[TheDurk]

Terminal 8 would allow high or low if the stalk will switch hi/lo. If it is fried, who knows.

He got the stalk to switch high/low in Post #56 (at least I think he did) so that gang is proven good in my book.

It's pretty certain the cluster is toast, but you must FIRST confirm that term 16 is a good ground. No reason why it wouldn't be, but we must be sure. Connect one end of a test light to 12V and the other end to 16, it should light. While you are there, do the same thing to 13(with the stalk switch ON), this will tell us at least part of the switch is still good if it lights.

Terminal 16 ground is proven good if Tails and Flash work, which they do.



I'd love to have you ground terminal 5 at the DRL relay to confirm the original test of the DRL is ok.

Agree

MAN do we have a lot of posts on this!



Agree!

opcorn:

My comments in Bold

What I would like to see is a re-do of where I tried to bridge the cluster only, by jumpering Red-Yellow at Stalk T13 to Red-Blue at Stalk T8 with HEAD on. That will condemn cluster absolutely (hopefully) and tell us if there are any other problems.

 

[Fishwerks]

My comments in Bold

What I would like to see is a re-do of where I tried to bridge the cluster only, by jumpering Red-Yellow at Stalk T13 to Red-Blue at Stalk T8 with HEAD on. That will condemn cluster absolutely (hopefully) and tell us if there are any other problems.

Red-Yellow (T13) to Red-Blue (T8) with the Stalk with HEAD turns on the HIGHs (blue dash light comes on too).

At the DRL relay, Terminal 6 (Red wire) will ground with the relay disconnected and with the relay connected, but when I FLASH my test probe light goes off. Terminal 5 (green wire) gets a ground with the DRL relay connected (LOWs come on!), but the LOWs stay on with the stalk switch at HEAD or OFF... This also allows me to put HIGH on (blue dash light comes on too).

 

[IBallEngineer]

Red-Yellow (T13) to Red-Blue (T8) with the Stalk with HEAD turns on the HIGHs (blue dash light comes on too).

.

So when you jumper those two, lo beams don't operate?

The way the 2000 diagram shows I don't think grounding terminal 5 of the relay due to the diode.

We need to find an easy way to by pass the cluster permanently. If it were me I'd pull the cluster and make the bridge right there. Connector 27, terminals 1(red with yellow) and 5(green). We know for sure the cluster is not completing the circuit. Then we can see if you are switching hi/lo.

 

[Grenvilleter]

If it were mine and I knew 100% certainty there was a burnt trace on the cluster, I'd pull it and repair the trace.
If it's anything like the cluster cct board shown at yotatech on a '98, it should be very repairable.

While I was at it, I might consider replacing the bulbs with LED's ..... naw...not tightwad me...old ones are working fine !

 

[Fishwerks]

So when you jumper those two, lo beams don't operate?

The way the 2000 diagram shows I don't think grounding terminal 5 of the relay due to the diode.

We need to find an easy way to by pass the cluster permanently. If it were me I'd pull the cluster and make the bridge right there. Connector 27, terminals 1(red with yellow) and 5(green). We know for sure the cluster is not completing the circuit. Then we can see if you are switching hi/lo.

Jumpering T13 and T8 at the stalk only allows HI to operate with the stalk on HEAD or HI, but LO does not operate this way.

 

[TheDurk]

So when you jumper those two, lo beams don't operate?

The way the 2000 diagram shows I don't think grounding terminal 5 of the relay due to the diode.

We need to find an easy way to by pass the cluster permanently. If it were me I'd pull the cluster and make the bridge right there. Connector 27, terminals 1(red with yellow) and 5(green). We know for sure the cluster is not completing the circuit. Then we can see if you are switching hi/lo.

I'm thinking the DRL relay may have an issue. We may end up cutting the Violet and Yellow/Black at the DRL relay and wire-nutting or soldering them together. That would restore low beam control as long as the stalk is indeed good. I may be ahead of myself here. Carry on.

 

[Fishwerks]

If it were mine and I knew 100% certainty there was a burnt trace on the cluster, I'd pull it and repair the trace.
If it's anything like the cluster cct board shown at yotatech on a '98, it should be very repairable.

While I was at it, I might consider replacing the bulbs with LED's ..... naw...not tightwad me...old ones are working fine !

I don't know what a trace is…or how to fix one…

 

[TheDurk]

If it were mine and I knew 100% certainty there was a burnt trace on the cluster, I'd pull it and repair the trace.
If it's anything like the cluster cct board shown at yotatech on a '98, it should be very repairable.

While I was at it, I might consider replacing the bulbs with LED's ..... naw...not tightwad me...old ones are working fine !

I suspect it's not as simple as just a trace. There is some logic to the auto-off circuit on that board and I think that's what's fried. Some brain surgery might be required, not just circulatory.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Jumpering T13 and T8 at the stalk only allows HI to operate with the stalk on HEAD or HI, but LO does not operate this way.

I hate to do this...but

:deadhorse:

I know the horse is dead, but T13 and T8 don't actually hook up in real life. Terminal 8 is the "flash" circuit, so you don't get lo beams. To get low beams you got to go through, or around the cluster. On the 01-02 diagram that was accomplished using T8, but not on the 2000. The diode prevents that, I believe. Forget T8 for now.

If you don't think you can fix the cluster, jumper terminals 1 and 5 at C27 connector of the cluster. Please!!

op2:

 

[Fishwerks]

If you don't think you can fix the cluster, jumper terminals 1 and 5 at C27 connector of the cluster. Please!!

op2:

Temporary jumper (aka paper clip) allows headlights and fog lights to function as normal :llama:

 

[IBallEngineer]

Temporary jumper (aka paper clip) allows headlights and fog lights to function as normal :llama:

You FIXED it!!

Good thing, I was getting tired of peanuts and popcorn!

:couch2:

 

[TheDurk]

Congratulations!! Now just remember to turn your headlights off when you exit the truck!

This has been fun.