Help with clutch and clutch pedal

[ryandc]

Speeds and feeds up-front:
Vehicle is a 1999 with the 3.4L engine, traditional J-style 4-wheel drive transfer case, and manual transmission
Transmission had old (OEM, original) clutch replaced at 194,000 miles with a (sigh) Gripforce clutch. In my defense, I didn't have a lot of money at the time. Said clutch now has roughly 80,000 miles on it.

The problem:

Clutch pedal has been squeaking for a long time. I've mostly ignored it, but those chickens seem to have finally come home to roost. Last week, I found myself unable to put the car into gear while it's running. If I tried to start the car while in gear, the clutch feels engaged to the flywheel (starts moving forward on its own), or stalls when I apply the brakes, even with the clutch shoved all the way to the floor.

It's classic "Pressing the pedal isn't fully disengaging the clutch" behavior.

This could be hydraulics, but the thing is, it goes into gear... sometimes. I'd suspect air in the master-slave cylinder line, but that's literally 3 feet of tubing.

I've decided that - seeing as I take this truck on the trail and am sorta dependent on it - it's time to just replace the rest of the hydraulics. To that end, I've purchased the master and slave cylinders, parts AISIN CMT-093 and AISIN CRT-014. I do have some questions, though, that I'm hoping the community can help me out on. Namely:

- If replacing master and slave cylinder, should I replace the line between them? If yes, anybody have a part number handy?

- The pedal bushing issue surfaces a lot, and I've seen everything from welding to ad-hoc spring fixes. What is the best fix for the pedal bushing, assuming that the spring is already eating into the pedal? I do not have a welder at home, but do have a lathe, mill, and a bewildering assortment of nuts and bolts.

- What is the fluid capacity of the clutch hydraulic system? Any recommendations for the fill (it has to be DOT4)?

- The OEM clutch made it to 195,000. My replacement clutch is at 80,000ish miles. Would it be advisable - given the poor reputation of the parts currently in there - to replace the clutch and flywheel as well?

- Could the inability to put the vehicle into gear be anything else? I know the symptoms of a bad clutch (it's why I got this truck so cheaply in the first place), but there may be something I've overlooked.

Thanks always to this community for its help!

 

[brillo_76]

Speeds and feeds up-front:

Vehicle is a 1999 with the 3.4L engine, traditional J-style 4-wheel drive transfer case, and manual transmission

Transmission had old (OEM, original) clutch replaced at 194,000 miles with a (sigh) Gripforce clutch. In my defense, I didn't have a lot of money at the time. Said clutch now has roughly 80,000 miles on it.



The problem:



Clutch pedal has been squeaking for a long time. I've mostly ignored it, but those chickens seem to have finally come home to roost. Last week, I found myself unable to put the car into gear while it's running. If I tried to start the car while in gear, the clutch feels engaged to the flywheel (starts moving forward on its own), or stalls when I apply the brakes, even with the clutch shoved all the way to the floor.



It's classic "Pressing the pedal isn't fully disengaging the clutch" behavior.



This could be hydraulics, but the thing is, it goes into gear... sometimes. I'd suspect air in the master-slave cylinder line, but that's literally 3 feet of tubing.



I've decided that - seeing as I take this truck on the trail and am sorta dependent on it - it's time to just replace the rest of the hydraulics. To that end, I've purchased the master and slave cylinders, parts AISIN CMT-093 and AISIN CRT-014. I do have some questions, though, that I'm hoping the community can help me out on. Namely:



- If replacing master and slave cylinder, should I replace the line between them? If yes, anybody have a part number handy?



- The pedal bushing issue surfaces a lot, and I've seen everything from welding to ad-hoc spring fixes. What is the best fix for the pedal bushing, assuming that the spring is already eating into the pedal? I do not have a welder at home, but do have a lathe, mill, and a bewildering assortment of nuts and bolts.



- What is the fluid capacity of the clutch hydraulic system? Any recommendations for the fill (it has to be DOT4)?



- The OEM clutch made it to 195,000. My replacement clutch is at 80,000ish miles. Would it be advisable - given the poor reputation of the parts currently in there - to replace the clutch and flywheel as well?



- Could the inability to put the vehicle into gear be anything else? I know the symptoms of a bad clutch (it's why I got this truck so cheaply in the first place), but there may be something I've overlooked.



Thanks always to this community for its help!

I have seen old clutch master cylinders go bad. That they either leak fluid or that little plunger o rings go bad and the fluid dosent compress the slave cylinder properly.


I personally haven't seen a Toyota manual transmission failed that wasnt heavily abused. I have see people rip reverse out of the 5 speeds before. Granted like everything I am sure they can.


When you depress your clutch pedal is the slave cylinder moving?


Your lucky with 200k that normal and good. I have one with a bad clutch at 120k. I have no idea what the PO did.

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[ryandc]

I have seen old clutch master cylinders go bad. That they either leak fluid or that little plunger o rings go bad and the fluid dosent compress the slave cylinder properly.


I personally haven't seen a Toyota manual transmission failed that wasnt heavily abused. I have see people rip reverse out of the 5 speeds before. Granted like everything I am sure they can.


When you depress your clutch pedal is the slave cylinder moving?


Your lucky with 200k that normal and good. I have one with a bad clutch at 120k. I have no idea what the PO did.

Sent from my SM-J337V using Tapatalk

Yeah, I knew when I bought this truck the clutch was bad. If you shifted at too high of revs, you could hear the engine over-rev when the clutch was engaged. As long as you kept the RPM's under 2,000 it was fine, but rapid acceleration wasn't possible.

When I replaced the clutch, I was impressed it worked as well as it did. Fully a third of the clutch fingers were literally gone, and the flywheel was badly scored.

I hate throwing parts at stuff, but $80 worth of parts isn't too bad.

 

[JZiggy]

- replace the hydraulic line while you’re at it
- check your transmission shifter seat bushing
- check page 1 of my build about eliminating the ridiculous torsion spring and putting in a linear spring instead. This fix has worked perfectly for 3 years now.

 

[brillo_76]

Yeah, I knew when I bought this truck the clutch was bad. If you shifted at too high of revs, you could hear the engine over-rev when the clutch was engaged. As long as you kept the RPM's under 2,000 it was fine, but rapid acceleration wasn't possible.



When I replaced the clutch, I was impressed it worked as well as it did. Fully a third of the clutch fingers were literally gone, and the flywheel was badly scored.



I hate throwing parts at stuff, but $80 worth of parts isn't too bad.

Mostly when the clutches start slipping you can burn your flywheel. I had blue spots all over mine. As mine did that when I bought it. While I had everything out. I decided I would just rebuild my frame. So I still working on it

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[Hockeyjock]

Mine had a similar issue where sometimes my clutch would not fully disengage. I replaced my master and slave as well. Mine had no external leak but I figured it must have an internal leak. I did not feel the need to replace the line. After replacement clutch has been working like normal again.

As far as your pedal squeak it bay be due to the bushing at the pedal. I did replace mine and it helped with some of my squeak but I realized when bleeding the master that the majority of the squeak was coming from the clutch fork. Over the years a bunch of rust and gunk had build up in the little ball detent where the slave cylinder goes as well as the detent on the inside of the bell housing where that plate connects to the clutch fork. The main culprit was inside the bell housing for me. I removed the rubber boot and was able to reach in there wit( an acid brush that had some silicone grease on it. After that my squeak was gone.

 

[pluton]

Re: The spring anchor bushing that disintegrates, and then the torsion spring end eats away the metal hole in the bracket where the bushing was:
My '97 bushing was disintegrating and fell out when I acquired the 4Runner in 2013(120K miles at the time).
I greased the spring end, and the hole it sits in, with moly grease (Valvoline Synpower, if it matters). Now, 6.5 years/55K miles later, the hole appears not to have substantially enlarged, presumably due to the presence of the moly grease. I carry a linear spring 'just in case' I need it someday, but I'm just not seeing the erosion of the hole that so many report happening.
I had a creaky squeak from the clutch pedal for several years, could never pinpoint where it was coming from. Could have been the clutch fork inside the housing---I got noise/creaky vibration all up and down the system, from the housing to the pedal. But then the noise went away and has been gone for several years.

 

[brillo_76]

A squeaky pedal mostly was a dry pedal pivot bolt. I just coat them with WD-40 or FF and the squeaking stops.

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[ryandc]

Update

So, I spent some time yesterday and today replacing the master and slave cylinder.

In both cases, 2 12mm bolts hold the cylinder in, and a 10mm wrench will get the hydraulic line off. The slave cylinder is pretty straightforward; any socket wrench will do. The master cylinder top bolt is easy, but the bottom bolt is a pain in the ass (the lip the hood hinges ride in keeps a box wrench from making easy contact, and the hydraulic line a couple inches away from the firewall makes it difficult to get a long socket in there, and the length of the stud the bolts affix to makes it difficult to get a short socket on it). I ended up using a ratcheting box wrench to get that one off.

Putting things back on was straightforward, though I recommend a flare nut wrench if you don't want to be finagling an open-end wrench all day. Get a 10mm flare nut wrench and thank me later.

Bleeding is a two-person job and took about 10 minutes and about 20 open-close cycles.

Now, though, the truck shifts like a dream. It's my third stick shift vehicle. My first was a legacy Toyota truck (same platform as Gen1 4Runners), which had 300,000 miles and was always kinda notchy. Second was a 1987 Trooper II, with a mechanical clutch and the longest shifter throw of any non-commercial vehicle I've driven, and thus not a great example of smooth shifting. The master and slave cylinders I pulled off my 4Runner were factory originals (with 270,000+ miles!).

I can move between first and second without having to muscle it into gear at all. I've never had that experience before... on anything. My wife (who doesn't really 'get' old trucks) was wondering what I was so happy about when I tested it.

Cost for the whole job was about $105 - $25 for the slave cylinder (Aisin), $50 for the master (also Aisin), $10 for the flare nut wrench, and $20 of DOT4 brake fluid. And two beers.

I still need to fix the clutch pedal spring and put some kind of cover on the pedal, but this thing shifts better than it ever has before.

If you replace the clutch, I'd recommend replacing the cylinders at the same time. Total time for me was about an hour and a half, including bleeding.

 

[pluton]

Good of you to give us the update, Thx.

 

[photoleif]

that's great news. we did the master and slave in ours not long after we bought it. shifting was kinda rough and notchy. i ended up doing the cylinders, changing out the shifter seat, and also we did the clutch. finally, ha, it felt pretty good -- as good as the worn transmission parts allow for.

 

[brillo_76]

Glad it's fixed. Warn motor mounts and transmission mounts can also cause you some grief in the standards. I had many 3 or 4 of the gen1 4 runner era with both 4 and 5 speed transmissions as Toyota didn't put automatics into their trucks in the USA until 1987.

So if you have some higher mileage rigs and your done everything else. You many want to check into your rubber mounts as they can flex too much and give you some grief as well.

Mostly this issue was with the cars the are manuals with cables instead of direct linkage into the transmission. I just know the warn mounts can twist and flex the engine and transmission enough that can cause some slight alignment issues and missed gears..

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[Johnny0]

IF the squeaking is from the pedal assembly inside the cab, it's most likely the return spring and plastic bushings. I removed the entire pedal assembly and cut off the metal tab the original spring seats in on the pedal. IMHO, the stock design is crap)

I got a small "L" bracket and installed it using the single bolt from the pedal assembly you can see from the inside. Just place a new spring on the "L" bracket and the other end on the pin that attaches the clutch master arm to the pedal.

I just replaced clutch master, slave, and rubber hose on my T4R and did ts mod to the pedal, no more noise and it works way better. Adjusting pedal height is pretty straight forward

 

[davidch]

I think you could skip the step of installing a bracket, as Toyota has already supplied one for you. And it's a bracket intended for this very use.

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2542448-post79.html