Help with Transmission issue

[Hammer_Man]

First off, thank you to everyone on this forum so much. I've learned so much from everyone. Via their research, their trial and error (spending lots of their money) and their videos. I can't thank you all enough. This website has been an enormous resource for my learnings about 3rd gens.

I purchased a 1999 Limited with the e-locker and multi-mode 4WD this past November. The truck has 215k miles on it. One of the big reasons that I felt comfortable buying it, was because the previous owner had replaced the transmission and radiator (due to pink milk). He told me the transmission he had his mechanic put in was from a junkyard and only had 80k on it.

Fast Forward to January, when it started getting really cold in the north east. Driving to work in the morning, the truck would not shift out of 1st gear until it got up to temperature. Meaning the needle on the gauge starts to move and the cabin heater, set to auto, starts to blow warm air. I'm having the EXACT SAME ISSUE thegripper had a few years ago.

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-...ting-when-cold-yes-i-know-its-normal-but.html

The truck won't shift out of 1st until it gets up to temperature, after it warms up, the truck shifts and acts absolutely perfect when its warmed up. There are no check engine lights or pending codes. The only other symptom is when its cold, and I first put it in drive, the transmission slips a little.

What I've have done so far to troubleshoot that hasn't helped is: new battery, new TPS, and drained and refilled the ATF with Valvoline max life synthetic. I also got a sample to send off to blackstone lab's hoping they could tell me something (attached). It does show high iron. Anyone have any idea what this could mean?

I want to lean towards this being an electrical issue since it shifts perfectly when warmed up and the transmission only has about 85k miles on it now. But also, I'm finding out more and more as I own this truck that the PO did not take care of the 4runner at all. So maybe they cheaped out on something when the installed the transmission or other wise messed something up.

So advice time. Since thegripper's thread, has anyone found a smoking gun that causes this issue? Should I replace the transmission with another used one? How easy are these transmissions to rebuilt with a kit?

THANK YOU all so much for your help.

 

[jgue467]

So only a single drain/fill?

If so, I'd suggest Next to try a full flush, I'd take it a a pro with the right equipment. If the transmission is otherwise in good shape, a flush will only do it good and no harm will come of it. I've done it to all my autos, never had a tranny issue, current runner has had it done twice, besides my occassional drain/fills.

Luck and enjoy the runner. :cowboy:

 

[thegipper]

First off, thank you to everyone on this forum so much. I've learned so much from everyone. Via their research, their trial and error (spending lots of their money) and their videos. I can't thank you all enough. This website has been an enormous resource for my learnings about 3rd gens.

I purchased a 1999 Limited with the e-locker and multi-mode 4WD this past November. The truck has 215k miles on it. One of the big reasons that I felt comfortable buying it, was because the previous owner had replaced the transmission and radiator (due to pink milk). He told me the transmission he had his mechanic put in was from a junkyard and only had 80k on it.

Fast Forward to January, when it started getting really cold in the north east. Driving to work in the morning, the truck would not shift out of 1st gear until it got up to temperature. Meaning the needle on the gauge starts to move and the cabin heater, set to auto, starts to blow warm air. I'm having the EXACT SAME ISSUE thegripper had a few years ago.

Delayed shifting when cold, yes I know its normal but.....

The truck won't shift out of 1st until it gets up to temperature, after it warms up, the truck shifts and acts absolutely perfect when its warmed up. There are no check engine lights or pending codes. The only other symptom is when its cold, and I first put it in drive, the transmission slips a little.

What I've have done so far to troubleshoot that hasn't helped is: new battery, new TPS, and drained and refilled the ATF with Valvoline max life synthetic. I also got a sample to send off to blackstone lab's hoping they could tell me something (attached). It does show high iron. Anyone have any idea what this could mean?

I want to lean towards this being an electrical issue since it shifts perfectly when warmed up and the transmission only has about 85k miles on it now. But also, I'm finding out more and more as I own this truck that the PO did not take care of the 4runner at all. So maybe they cheaped out on something when the installed the transmission or other wise messed something up.

So advice time. Since thegripper's thread, has anyone found a smoking gun that causes this issue? Should I replace the transmission with another used one? How easy are these transmissions to rebuilt with a kit?

THANK YOU all so much for your help.

Did the previous owner give you any records for this transmission they put in (service receipt from the mechanic or anything)?

I really hope this isn't the case but how certain are you that they actually put in a different transmission? These transmission are pretty bomb proof minus if they suffer a pink milk shake or if the fluid never gets changed. Since this "donor" transmission is having the EXACT same issue as my transmission post PMS, that is kind of suspicious. Unless, the tranny they swapped in was also a victim of a PMS.

Unfortunately, I was never able to find out for certain what exactly was failing on my tranny. My best guess was the pump was on its way out. I believe this was due to the filter being clogged with brown clay/sludge that developed from the coolant breaking down the clutch packs. This starves the pump and causes it to fail. I had a nasty whine sound before the shifting problem started (cold start for 20 seconds or so). I dropped the pan and thats when I saw the filter/pan had that brown clay/sludge crap everywhere. I cleaned everything real good and while it fixed the whining noise, I believe the damage was already done. Shortly after I fixed the whine is when the stuck in 1st problem started.

At this point, I would drop the pan and see if anything stands out (metal shavings, brown clay buildup on the bottom of the pan, brown clay that would be plugged up in the filter etc).

If you see that clay/mud/sludge crap in your pan they either never changed transmission or the donor tranny also suffered a PMS.

Another test you can try to rule out a bad solenoid is to disconnect the solenoid harness from the case of the tranny (I believe it is on the driver side). Then, go take it for a drive and try manually shifting through the gears. If it shifts out of 1st, you got a bad solenoid or an issue with the valve body. If it still doesn't shift until warm, unfortunately, you might have to get another tranny. This test comes straight from the FSM and it completely eliminates the valve body/solenoids from shifting (shifting is purely mechanical via the shift lever).

My problem never went away and I literally tried everything. It got worse and worse until the truck had to be almost fully warmed up before it would shift out of 1st. Even then, once it started shifting, it otherwise acted completely normal.

Good luck and I'll help any way I can.

 

[Hammer_Man]

So only a single drain/fill?

If so, I'd suggest Next to try a full flush, I'd take it a a pro with the right equipment. If the transmission is otherwise in good shape, a flush will only do it good and no harm will come of it. I've done it to all my autos, never had a tranny issue, current runner has had it done twice, besides my occassional drain/fills.

Luck and enjoy the runner. :cowboy:

Yes, Only a single Fill Drain. Yeah I could try a full flush, because I know just doing the 4 quarts doesn't get all the fluid out.

 

[thegipper]

Don't bother trying to rebuild the tranny, it's a job left to the professionals (like rebuilding differentials). Most of the professionally rebuilt tranny's for these trucks are junk unless you buy it directly from Toyota. Speaking of, you may want to go that route if you are done taking chances with used tranny's. Infamous (Sean) put one in his truck and to my knowledge, it's been good.

Several people on here have bought rebuilt tranny's from other companies and most have had them fail in a short period of time.

 

[Hammer_Man]

Did the previous owner give you any records for this transmission they put in (service receipt from the mechanic or anything)?

I really hope this isn't the case but how certain are you that they actually put in a different transmission? These transmission are pretty bomb proof minus if they suffer a pink milk shake or if the fluid never gets changed. Since this "donor" transmission is having the EXACT same issue as my transmission post PMS, that is kind of suspicious. Unless, the tranny they swapped in was also a victim of a PMS.

Unfortunately, I was never able to find out for certain what exactly was failing on my tranny. My best guess was the pump was on its way out. I believe this was due to the filter being clogged with brown clay/sludge that developed from the coolant breaking down the clutch packs. This starves the pump and causes it to fail. I had a nasty whine sound before the shifting problem started (cold start for 20 seconds or so). I dropped the pan and thats when I saw the filter/pan had that brown clay/sludge crap everywhere. I cleaned everything real good and while it fixed the whining noise, I believe the damage was already done.

At this point, I would drop the pan and see if anything stands out (metal shavings, brown clay buildup on the bottom of the pan, brown clay that would be plugged up in the filter etc).

If you see that clay/mud/sludge crap in your pan they either never changed transmission or the donor tranny also suffered a PMS.

Another test you can try to rule out a bad solenoid is to disconnect the solenoid harness from the case of the tranny (I believe it is on the driver side). Then, go take it for a drive and try manually shifting through the gears. If it shifts out of 1st, you got a bad solenoid. If it still doesn't shift until warm, unfortunately, you'll probably have to get another tranny. This test comes straight from the FSM.

My problem never went away and I literally tried everything. It got worse and worse until the truck had to be almost fully warmed up before it would shift out of 1st. Even then, once it started shifting, it otherwise acted completely normal.

Good luck and I'll help any way I can.

Thanks for the prompt response!

The previous owner did not give me any records, the more I learn about this truck, the more I believe he cheeped out where ever he could. I did talk to the mechanic that installed the transmission tho, and I believe he was being honest. They just took a low mileage one out of a junkyard - so that's a thought I hadn't thought of, maybe the junkyard one had pink milkshake and they just did a flush and called it a day.

I havn't pulled the pan yet or checked the filter because I would assume that they put on a new filter with the new tranny, but who knows. Also, if you see the attached fluid analysis from Blackstone labs from my first post, there wasn't any sludge or coolant/ water present. Just a high amount of Iron :tape2:

Good idea on the manual shift test. I'll try that this week. Luckily I have another car I can drive to work with so i've been using that one lately.

 

[thegipper]

Do the manual shift test next because that is the quickest/easiest thing to do. No matter the results, I would drop the pan. It's really easy and you can inspect the filter and look for any other issues.

There wouldn't be any reason for the shop to drop the pan and change the filter so I doubt they did.

You'll know more when you drop the pan and do the shift test.

Keep us posted and we'll do our best to help.

 

[thegipper]

Here is the sludge/clay I was talking about.

Also, look at the filter screen before/after cleaning. That same clay crap was all plugged up in there.

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[Hammer_Man]

Do the manual shift test next because that is the quickest/easiest thing to do. No matter the results, I would drop the pan. It's really easy and you can inspect the filter and look for any other issues.

There wouldn't be any reason for the shop to drop the pan and change the filter so I doubt they did.

You'll know more when you drop the pan and do the shift test.

Keep us posted and we'll do our best to help.

Okay thanks. Will do. That will be my priority next weekend.

 

[MaineRunna]

I agree with thegipper, do the solenoid test first. No matter the outcome you can flush the tranny yourself. Get a 5 gallon bucket of Dexron III or synthetic ATF, a funnel, a couple of feet of 3/8" hose and a bucket. Determine which cooler line is the outlet line, connect the piece of hose that empties into the bucket, start the truck and just keep pouring ATF in through the dipstick tube for as long as you like. I have saved a couple of Toyota automatics with this method if caught early. My brother picked up a beautiful Wyoming rust free 99 for $1500 because of PMS and we saved it this way. We also removed the pan, cleaned out the inside and replaced the filter. He repeated the procedure himself a couple more times before he was satisfied with the cleanliness of the fluid and inside the transmission. It's still going strong 3 years on although the Vermont winters have done a number on the frame. If you decide you need a new one get a Toyota reman.

 

[octanejunkie]

I agree with thegipper, do the solenoid test first. No matter the outcome you can flush the tranny yourself. Get a 5 gallon bucket of Dexron III or synthetic ATF, a funnel, a couple of feet of 3/8" hose and a bucket. Determine which cooler line is the outlet line, connect the piece of hose that empties into the bucket, start the truck and just keep pouring ATF in through the dipstick tube for as long as you like.

:iagree: THIS

I wasn't having problems, per say, but I did a series of drain and fills and it was a waste of time and money.

I finally did a pump and fill replacement "draining" from the the trans cooler return line (bottom of radiator on driver side) and filled from the dipstick. Run the engine to pump out 1QT at a time, then shut it down and add a quart back. 11 or 12 quarts should do it.

 

[Hammer_Man]

Do the manual shift test next because that is the quickest/easiest thing to do. No matter the results, I would drop the pan. It's really easy and you can inspect the filter and look for any other issues.

There wouldn't be any reason for the shop to drop the pan and change the filter so I doubt they did.

You'll know more when you drop the pan and do the shift test.

Keep us posted and we'll do our best to help.

Did the manual shift test, and..... she shifted into 2nd gear. So I guess that means the problem is electrical? I don't suppose it could still be either a clogged filter or the pump since it shifted manually? Did yours pass this test? I'll go back and re read your thread now.

So what now if its electrical? Try replacing the gauge cluster? replacing the ECU? These things didn't work for you so I doubt they would work for me. I'm thinking about taking it a shop that I trust and just having them diagnose the issue.

 

[catrains]

Did the manual shift test, and..... she shifted into 2nd gear. So I guess that means the problem is electrical? I don't suppose it could still be either a clogged filter or the pump since it shifted manually? Did yours pass this test? I'll go back and re read your thread now.

So what now if its electrical? Try replacing the gauge cluster? replacing the ECU? These things didn't work for you so I doubt they would work for me. I'm thinking about taking it a shop that I trust and just having them diagnose the issue.

your tranny issue is how my 2000 GM truck operates since new !!! when the temps drop below 40F my GM truck has delayed up shifts. about 19 yrs ago I called dealership and they said this is normal the temp sensor in tranny tells the PCM to create the delay in upshifting..

when it gets like 20F and lower I will start the truck up let it idle for 5 MIN then shut it down let it sit 20 MIN then drive it .. the delay is gone or stops quickly ..I still have no idea why this is in the GM PCM program ???

also the GM tranny had DexronIII from factory and in 2001 I installed mobil synthetic transmission fluid dex/merc .. same viscosity as the dexron III same GM spec..

 

[Hammer_Man]

your tranny issue is how my 2000 GM truck operates since new !!! when the temps drop below 40F my GM truck has delayed up shifts. about 19 yrs ago I called dealership and they said this is normal the temp sensor in tranny tells the PCM to create the delay in upshifting..

when it gets like 20F and lower I will start the truck up let it idle for 5 MIN then shut it down let it sit 20 MIN then drive it .. the delay is gone or stops quickly ..I still have no idea why this is in the GM PCM program ???

also the GM tranny had DexronIII from factory and in 2001 I installed mobil synthetic transmission fluid dex/merc .. same viscosity as the dexron III same GM spec..

It's a little different than that. I know delayed shifting from 2nd to 3rd is normal when cold, however my truck won't get out of 1st gear. It'll go to 4k RPM trying to do 20mpg (not that I do that - i keep it under 3k).

 

[MStudt]

I don't think you'll be able to fix the issue since it's not really an issue.

My 4runner has been doing that since I bought it 5 years ago. It's always done it when it's cold out, and never gotten any worse. I can attest that it's nothing to do with the transmission since I'm on number 3, and they've all been the exact same.

First transmission did this until it was warm, or until the first cold shift around 33 mph. After that everything shifted just fine. Second transmission did the same thing. I even change all the shift solenoids, and filter after a couple months of driving. Nothing changed there. Now, on to my third transmission just this year, and it has the same shifting pattern when it's cold.

 

[catrains]

It's a little different than that. I know delayed shifting from 2nd to 3rd is normal when cold, however my truck won't get out of 1st gear. It'll go to 4k RPM trying to do 20mpg (not that I do that - i keep it under 3k).

on my GM truck cold 1-2nd 20MPH 2-3rd 30MPH.. goes up to 3KRPM.. 4K must be a pressure / fluid flow problem ..have the transmission shop do the pressure testing when it is cold.. or change the fluid/filter see if it improves .. when I converted to synthetic the upshifts and reverse engaged much faster ..the cold temp delay did not change because of the PCM program ..normal up shift on my GM truck and runner is the same 1-2 12 mph 2-3 around 20 MPH ..

 

[thegipper]

The delayed shifting out of 2nd into 3rd is normal when the engine is cold. It supposedly has something to do with the emissions.

Your truck should always shift out of 1st gear into 2nd no matter how cold it is outside or how cold/warm the engine is.

Since your truck shifted when you manually did it, that is a good thing. When I tried this test, it still wouldn't shift into 2nd which meant there was something mechanically wrong with my tranny.

I would drop the pan and bench test your solenoids next, specifically the one that controls the 1st to 2nd shift. If you have access to the FSM, find the page that describes the three tests for the solenoid and perform those tests.

If the solenoid fails any of the tests, I would replace it and probably the other two while you are in there.

If the solenoid passes the tests, there is probably something wrong with your valve body, pump or ??? and you're better off taking it to a tranny shop at this point.

There are some other tests that you can do (line pressure etc) if you have the right equipment/tools. This will tell you if the pump is working correctly. I unfortunately didn't have these tools so I opted to call it quits and just swap in a different tranny.

 

[Hammer_Man]

Okay, so I have a different problem than you then but with similar symptoms.

Im thinking it might be the solenoids, since when I unplugged them, the truck shifted. Ill look into how difficult it is to remove/ swap the solenoids. Luckily, I have another car I can take to work, so no rush. But it sucks because I bought this rig specially to take on road trips and stuff, and this issue doesn’t inspire confidence in me.

After the solenoids ill do the filter and have a shop I trust do the fluid flush and put in synthetic.

Thanks again for everyones help troubleshooting.


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[thegipper]

It's very easy to drop the pan. Remove the dipstick (one bolt) and remove the bolts that hold the pan on and it will drop out (drain it first obviously).

Once it is out, there is only one bolt that holds each solenoid in place if I remember correctly, you cannot miss them. I would just order a new set of solenoids and swap them in.

If money is tight, you can try testing them before you buy new ones.

And if you can change your oil, you can do the full fluid exchange yourself. It's super easy . I like to use Valvoline maxlife full synthetic ATF. Walmart sells gallon jugs of it for cheap, I would get 3.

Tim/Sean have an excellent video on youtube showing you step by step how to do the fluid exchange.