4runningyeti
New member
No, see if I wanted to use an ad hominem properly, I would, rather than respond to your delusions, say
You are too obtuse to be reasoned with.
That is ad hominem.
Alas, probably what I should have done.
Hope for the best prepare for the worst.How are you prepping for the covid-19 virus.
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No, see if I wanted to use an ad hominem properly, I would, rather than respond to your delusions, say
You are too obtuse to be reasoned with.
That is ad hominem.
Alas, probably what I should have done.
Rapid_Amble
New member
You should study more.
Or, put your internet wingding back in your pocket and stay on topic.
What do you make of NY adding 3700 dead bodies to covid19 fatalities because they had to pump up their rookie numbers?
Or what do you think about CA casting aside governed by consent?
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2012sr5
New member
Fully agreed with that last part.
Man I’d give about anything to be able to work like you can. That financial disaster that would befall you and your family? That’s my life right now. And I am a healthy 30-something with no pre-existing conditions that would put me in a high-risk category. I, and millions upon millions like me, have been told they have to stay home. Millions of us have been terminated in the meantime from our positions and won’t have a job to return to once things open back up. Thankfully, I’m not yet in that category. No accounting for what we personally feel is “unwise” for our situation. We are simply not allowed to work.
And this is exactly my point—maybe, just maybe, this one-size-fits-all shutdown of everything was necessary in the beginning. But maybe it isn’t the best way to continue forward. Maybe we should transition to letting the healthy/non-high-risk get back to work and isolate the high-risk for the inevitable follow-up growth curve that *will* happen when we open back up.
There is data out there showing that the countries that kept their economies largely open, isolated the elderly and high-risk, and required wearing masks in public saw lower growth curves of infection than other countries. I’m speaking primarily of Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, and South Korea.
As of today their cases/1M pop and deaths/1M pop are:
Singapore 556 / 2
S. Korea 207 / 4
Hong Kong 136 / 0.5
Japan 64 / 1
Source: Live World Meter COVID-19
By contrast, USA is currently at 1,859 cases/1M pop and 79 deaths/1M pop. New York alone has heavily skewed those numbers, as it has 33% of all US cases and 41.4% of all US deaths. Source: covidus.com
thennen
New member
Man, I'm sorry to hear that you're in such a tough spot. Yes, it's been very rough. I can't say that I understand where you are, because I thankfully haven't been there. But I do feel for you. I'm very fortunate to be classified as an 'essential' worker (everyone is essential, in my view, but that's another discussion).
I'm with you that we need to start re-opening, moving back toward full production and full employment. Isolating the 'high-risk' people would be a trick, I think, especially this far in, as I believe there would be a significant anger problem to deal with if people are classified and segregated out for isolation. How would those decisions be arrived at, and who would decide? Again, based on the charts and graphs, I would be put into that group based on my age alone.
I think one of the things we'll all need to swallow is that there will be some sort of bump upward in infections. Hopefully the lessons/behavior modifications we've learned over the past month or more will carry over and keep the new infections low.
ElectroBoy
Banned
Singapore and the others were more successful because they learned lessons from previous SARS outbreaks and were prepared for future epidemics. The US was not prepared for this. We can lay blame on many culprits (depending on your politics of course).
Singapore had the necessary equipment ready, and testing and monitoring protocols. Like taking everyone’s temperature before going into buildings multiple times a day. They used surveillance of infected people and others through cell phone tracking to keep them quarantined. They enforced strict quarantines, almost like imprisonment. It took quick reaction and some tough enforcement to accomplish a quick flattening of the curve. Their social structure accepts this curtailment of freedoms to keep social order. Do you really think we could duplicate that here?
Singapore Was Ready for Covid-19—Other Countries, Take Note | WIRED
ElectroBoy
Banned
Thanks for that but it seems that link expired. This one worked for me:
Massachusetts town enforcing one-way sidewalks to ensure social distancing amid coronavirus fight - Breaking News Time | Live News | Current News | Fast News - US, UK & World
It sounds like a grave overreach of an oppressive government, but it’s actually a good thing. Local leaders know what’s best for their particular situations. It seems that narrow sidewalks in that one area caused people to bump into each other when passing. So they made those sidewalks one way.
During this epidemic some of my local parks have assessed user traffic on popular single track hiking trails and designated a few of them with one way signage. These trails are typically two to three feet wide and can have a very steep downslope on one side, so no way to maintain six feet of clearance. It’s a good call for safety, not abusive tyranny.
Charlievee
Senior Member
I get the whole "greater good", but why does every political action or law come at the "tip of a spear"? While many of these stories are small cuts in the constitution, how many before its shredded? I doubt the genie will be put back in the bottle.
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Taxachusetts Home of the crazy drivers!! Love the Bruins/Pats & the city of Boston. I would NOT live in that state though!!
thennen
New member
I think you nailed an important point when making comparisons between different countries' reactions to this virus. Cultures are very different, and some like Singapore will tolerate suppression of freedoms more than others will. I believe their society is very structured. On the other end, you have a very contact-oriented older population in Italy that contributed to the very fast spread there. I think they were even encouraged to 'hug a Chinese' at one point.
ElectroBoy
Banned
Yeah! Isn’t it great that CA, WA, OR and soon other western states actually have a plan? I haven’t seen any reasonable federal plan.
My prediction is these states will have very few subsequent outbreaks before a vaccine is available, and will be the first to return to prosperity.
ElectroBoy
Banned
I also hate the heavy hand that’s sometimes applied as punishment for not obeying rules. Sometimes the fine matches the infraction, like speeding. But ~$400 for a car pool violation?
Another park example: in some cities residents with cabin fever go to a city park, set out a blanket to catch some sun or have a picnic, maintain plenty of distance (like 20 feet), and behave themselves. Nevertheless the police walk among them, chastise them for not maintaining the spirit of the rule for going out only for “essential activities”, and tell them to go home. They don’t give out tickets yet, but this isn’t right.
Jernik
New member
Someone on another forum posted this link. Admittedly, this person is very far right on the political spectrum, so I'm sure the link is biased that direction.
People fed up with draconian rules are starting to push back in MI
People fed up with draconian rules are starting to push back in MI
nevada
Senior Member
as someone who lives in one of those states, their "plan" is bullshit. allowing grocery shopping, but closing fishing and hunting is absolutely ridiculous.
this "plan" is devastating to businesses.
ElectroBoy
Banned
Yeah, you [MENTION=113024]Jernik[/MENTION] have pointed out an important thing that leaders have to be aware of. People generally comply if they agree with the rules. They will even put up with severe hardships for the greater good if they understand the big picture and know there’s a plan to get out of trouble and there is an end in sight. But if the rules are seen as unreasonable, oppressive, or stupid, people will act up, protest, and disobey the rules.
Jernik
New member
The person who posted that link has been upset all week about people that have been handed $1000 fines for being out, by themselves, fishing. Nobody else around. Others fined $400 or more for walking out on their front sidewalk - 20 feet from their front door - just to get some air. He had at least one pic of one of the citations, but I'm not sure if that was a first-hand pic or if he snagged it from FB or something.
I couldn't stay in the house - I need some air too. If true, that's ridiculous IMO. It may be necessary in a high-rise amidst a densely populated city, but in suburbia, small towns, or the country it doesn't make sense.
ElectroBoy
Banned
In my experience when the shutdown was enacted people went outside to stay sane and healthy. That’s good, the authorities said, and encouraged it. The word spread and soon lots of people crowded the parking lots at parks, trailheads, and beaches. So the parking lots were closed. People then drove further to still-open parks, beaches and preserves, or walked or biked to them. Crowding happened, so most of them were closed. Stay at home or closer to home, the authorities said. There are a few places left open, so we can make do for now. People are complying for now, but if we’re in this for a much longer time, or if more closures happen, civil disobedience will be a real problem.
I suppose we could contact our representatives and complain and give them better suggestions and plead with them for better guidelines. But that’s a PIA.
I suppose we could contact our representatives and complain and give them better suggestions and plead with them for better guidelines. But that’s a PIA.
thennen
New member
Well, it sounds like the problem started when people began crowding together. I’m tired of it all, too. But at some point I need to realize that the ‘distancing’ is for everyone’s good, including me. If I go to a park and there are enough people there that I have to get close to them in order to be there, I need to decide if I want to place myself and others at that risk. I really shouldn’t have to wait for the authorities to come and ‘fix’ the problem. It’s on me to some degree to avoid creating the problem in the first place.
I agree with you that we can’t keep doing this much longer. People who have lived free all their lives will sooner or later say to hell with this.
Space King
New member
On the bright side, this lockdown has made all of my neighbors super outdoorsy and athletic seemingly overnight. I live in a small neighborhood and in normal times, I rarely saw anybody out on the street. I could spend a whole Saturday afternoon detailing my car and only see one person out with their dog. Now? Everyday when I go to work it looks like a mix between a dog park and a mini marathon.
LandCruiser
New member
They closed the parking lots of most of the parks and hiking trails around here...
Bumbo
New member
Developed BLM camp sites are closed, and there does not appear to be any other restriction but it seems like people are still getting hassled by law enforcement.
If you are camping out in the middle of nowhere I would say that's the definition of social distancing.
I've been itching for some normal, i'm probably going to throw the ARB in the 4Runner and take off this weekend.
Preferably somewhere that has no cell reception. I'm doing my part and i'll leave the wife at home too, just to make sure i'm doing it right.
If you are camping out in the middle of nowhere I would say that's the definition of social distancing.
I've been itching for some normal, i'm probably going to throw the ARB in the 4Runner and take off this weekend.
Preferably somewhere that has no cell reception. I'm doing my part and i'll leave the wife at home too, just to make sure i'm doing it right.
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