How much weight in armor can I add before needing a different suspension?

[GogDog]

Situation: Just traded my 2011 Tundra sr5 off road for a new 2018 ORP.

Use case: I'm trying to get to remote trailheads in Idaho and Utah. Not interested in mudding, or serious axle breaking rock crawling. But some of these forest roads are real rough (like lower dirty devil river put out for example). I've already replaced the front skid plate of the tundra, and have bent the back of the truck bed paneling. I switched to a 4runner for slightly better fuel economy and better off road ability. (I never towed anything with the 5.7L v8). I do go down towards Moab though...so...could start hitting up the trails down there. (pretty interested in the white rim trail...I've rafted the green river twice so might try driving it now!).

Anyway...looking for practical mods to justify. I can fund everything now if wanted/needed (so no need to wait for multiple mods).

For example:
1. Rock sliders. I had nerf steps on my tundra, and I still need something for my kids to get in the 4rnr, but might as well get some actual protection.
Weight: ~90lbs

2. Skid plates. I hit enough to need the protection. Was thinking the full rci package in aluminum black powder coated (I think they have more corrosion resistance than steel?) plus gas tank.
Weight: ~67lb skids, ~27lb fuel tank. 94lb total. Or 169lb in steel.

3. Winch. I could have used a winch several times already (to get myself out or another driver). Was thinking a SSO slimline (or similar), plus a smitty bilt winch. Plus also looks cool.
Bumper: 40lb, winch: 67lb 107lb total

So....now we are up to 291lb - 366lbs of added weight. What are my suspension options? Perhaps no suspension lift but just change the springs?

Basically...I also plan on buying different wheels and tires. My wife said that aggressive looking tires look sexy...so....you better believe that I'm changing them out.

I just can't decide on a tire until I know if I really need a suspension lift or not with the proposed mods. If I don't need a lift, I could do 275s on 17s though I would prefer to try and keep fuel economy decent so wanted C rated tires. I just don't think they really make 275/70/17s in Cs, but mainly Es? So that leaves like...BFG ko2 285/70/17s in C?

The accessories department thought instead of billstein 5100 lift, that a toyotec boss 2.0 lift would be more appropriate (balance of cost vs performance) but who knows if they really know anything.

 

[unsub1]

Was considering asking similar questions. I'm a carport dweller and therefore have an 80 inch height limit which makes a lift a no-go, so really wanting to keep it stock but armor my ORP with the aluminum RCI sliders and a SSO bumper.

Anyway, wondering many of the same things.

 

[bigbadpoppa]

That extra weight ia nothing to be concerned about. Its equivalent to driving 2 additional full grown adults full time. These trucks are not that frail. Your stock suspension can handle this minor extra weight.

 

[GogDog]

That's true that is about 2 adults of weight...I'm concerned with having it unbalanced weight. A lot of the weight is in the bumper/winch at the very front, so it doesn't balance the rear...

 

[Nightglow]

I have that same build and did not even see much of a hit in MPG over stock. I used to get 20-21HW/16City and:rofl: I still get 18-19 MPG highway and about 15-16 in the city. I have RCI sliders and skids (though not the gas tank) SSO front bumper with Warn winch and 255/75/17 Duratec tires. I now have a BP-51 suspension upgrade and Rhino-Rack Pioneer roof rack with little changes in MPG or handling on-road.

:guitar2:

 

[Cymon]

Sliders and skids you do not need to change suspension. As for the front bumper/winch you may want to add a higher spring-rate spring up front or else the nose-dive when breaking will be very pronounced. Check out all of the spring options with @dobinsons_mike at the link below, he can help you out.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/231576-dobinsons-5th-gen-toyota-4runner-suspension-options-lots-choices.html

As for the tires, I have 275 70r 17 LRC Cooper AT3's. Not "sexy" tires but after about 20k miles the tread is almost like new and they have not let me down in any conditions (wet, dry, rock, sand, mud, snow...I've driven in them all) and they ride well on the highway as well.

 

[Bijan]

Sliders and skids you do not need to change suspension. As for the front bumper/winch you may want to add a higher spring-rate spring up front or else the nose-dive when breaking will be very pronounced. Check out all of the spring options with @dobinsons_mike at the link below, he can help you out.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/231576-dobinsons-5th-gen-toyota-4runner-suspension-options-lots-choices.html

As for the tires, I have 275 70r 17 LRC Cooper AT3's. Not "sexy" tires but after about 20k miles the tread is almost like new and they have not let me down in any conditions (wet, dry, rock, sand, mud, snow...I've driven in them all) and they ride well on the highway as well.

Nailed it ^

Also check out Toytec BOSS coilovers which have a selectable 650 or 700lb spring rate ToyTec BOSS Coilovers

 

[GogDog]

Ok, and....I feel dumb, but I'm just going to come on out and ask.

Is this basically correct? ->

As I understand it...with getting a full suspension lift (lets say the toytec boss 2.0), I will gain 2-2.5" of lift. That will give me 2-2.5" more of ground clearance for most components, but will NOT change the front and rear differential clearances?

I.e., the only way to gain differential clearance is to get larger tires. Stock is 31" tires...so moving up to...a 33" tire, that would give me 1" of higher ground clearance for the differentials, right?

Further...upgrading the suspension will also give me longer wheel travel for both axles? Plus...upgraded springs/shocks will handle all of the bumps on the road and off road better?

Yes, I feel dumb for writing this.

 

[Easyrider18]

Ok, and....I feel dumb, but I'm just going to come on out and ask.

I.e., the only way to gain differential clearance is to get larger tires. Stock is 31" tires...so moving up to...a 33" tire, that would give me 1" of higher ground clearance for the differentials, right?

Further...upgrading the suspension will also give me longer wheel travel for both axles? Plus...upgraded springs/shocks will handle all of the bumps on the road and off road better?

Yes, I feel dumb for writing this.

You can get more clearance at the FRONT diff with a lift depending on how crazy you set your coilovers...but then that will screw up CV angles and give you a lack of down travel if you are just trying to achieve diff clearance.

But yes...for every 2"s bigger your tire is you will gain an inch of clearance at the diff.

Also yes, upgrading shocks, springs, etc. can achieve a way better ride and more wheel travel. It just all depends on how much money you throw at your new ride.

 

[GogDog]

You can get more clearance at the FRONT diff with a lift depending on how crazy you set your coilovers...but then that will screw up CV angles and give you a lack of down travel if you are just trying to achieve diff clearance.

But yes...for every 2"s bigger your tire is you will gain an inch of clearance at the diff.

Also yes, upgrading shocks, springs, etc. can achieve a way better ride and more wheel travel. It just all depends on how much money you throw at your new ride.

Ok....so with a 2" "normal" lift by itself (keeping stock tires)...my differentials stay the same height, but ....something like my gas tank would gain 2" of ground clearance? And...just looking at the 4rnr....it seems to me that everything protected from the front skid plates would also stay the same height as the front differential?

I'm just trying to understand what components get higher ground clearance with a lift and what doesn't.

 

[Easyrider18]

Ok....so with a 2" "normal" lift by itself (keeping stock tires)...my differentials stay the same height, but ....something like my gas tank would gain 2" of ground clearance? And...just looking at the 4rnr....it seems to me that everything protected from the front skid plates would also stay the same height as the front differential?

I'm just trying to understand what components get higher ground clearance with a lift and what doesn't.

You will gain some extra clearance just with a normal coilover lift. Think of the coilover pushing down on the lower a arm creating a steeper angle, thus lifting your truck (therefore everything else goes up). Its when the coilover is pushing down too far is it a bad thing.

Another way to lift your truck is a drop bracket lift to the front diff or a spindle lift if you have a 2wd 4runner.

 

[wfo9]

If you are going to do a winch.. you must have an aftermarket suspension. It puts weight in a really bad place way out on the nose.

Personally... I would skip the winch. It can come in real handy, but they are used so rarely in these trucks (unless you run in mud on a regular basis). You can get by with other recovery tools like traction boards.... and a manual winch as a last resort. The weight savings is worth it's weight in gold. IMHO.. but it does depend on your use case... at a certain point it is worth it for sure, but it depends on how you wheel and if you do solo stuff.... Weight on the nose is really bad.

For suspension. I'm not a bilstein 5100 fan. I would go with something a bit more durable.... on a budget I would look at Dobson or OME/ARB. If willing to spend a bit more step up to the BP-51, or go with one of the top line setups (Icon, King)

For the skids, don't get them power coated. Total waste of money on aluminum. They will get scraped up often.

Most important skid will be your gas tank skid. You will also want rear LCA bracket skids. The stuff in the front will hit also, but rarely once you learn how to pick lines and get a lift.

Ground clearance is not near as important as approach and departure + breakover... It still matters, but you learn to get the tires on the high spots when they exist....

If I were you.. I would invest in tires and the aluminum skids and maybe some sliders to start with. This will be enough to go have some fun and find the limits without tearing too much up. Then decide if you want the lift and of what quality. And do the winch/front bumper... last if you find you need it after the lift.

You should be able to run 285s with no lift. Just get the alignment set right (maximize caster) and trim the plastics a little....

 

[FreshYoungDude]

Talk to Dobinsons Mike about your suspension needs based on your weight additions. They have every possible spring setup under the sun at great prices.

 

[GogDog]

Personally... I would skip the winch. It can come in real handy, but they are used so rarely in these trucks (unless you run in mud on a regular basis). You can get by with other recovery tools like traction boards.... and a manual winch as a last resort.

Dang it...now you are bringing out the voice of reason. Voice of reason is no fun! I need to hear it though...got to try and balance my own needs vs wants. A slimline bumper and winch would be useful but you are right, probably overkill. I would really only probably use it...max...3-4 times unless I really stepped up my ORV game.
I was just really thankful for the group that was at the top of West Mountain in Cascade Idaho that called their buddy from their base camp that had a winch, who was 45 minutes away, without a single hesitation. He came, winched my tundra out of the snow in seconds, with a smile on his face just out of pure kindness. Its like I would love to start returning the favor to others. Some broke college kid trying to get to a remote trailhead in southern Utah in a 2wd car get stuck? I can help him out. Person get stuck in a ditch in front of my house during a snow storm? With an installed winch...no problem.

Anyway, are you basically suggesting something like a wyeth-scot.com style comealong? Those would be like...$400 or so shipped, and would have to take space in my trunk. But...would certainly save a lot of money vs a bumper and winch which would be around $1600 installed.

For the skids, don't get them power coated. Total waste of money on aluminum. They will get scraped up often.

I get the scraped up part....but are you saying the aluminum would be corrosion resistant enough without powder coating? The steel versions only come powder coated. And...you would also go unpainted aluminum vs steel for the gas skid?

You should be able to run 285s with no lift. Just get the alignment set right (maximize caster) and trim the plastics a little....

This must be a big contention point on the forum? I'm new but...in several threads I'm reading it almost gets to a fight between members that think you must have a 2-3" lift to get 285s on and others saying you absolutely don't need a lift. Hard for new members to sort it out.

Talk to Dobinsons Mike about your suspension needs based on your weight additions. They have every possible spring setup under the sun at great prices.

I really probably should.

 

[mrblah]

when I added skids, and sliders to my rig, it didnt make a difference in stance. When I added 250 lb drawers on the back, it gave my rig the "cali lean" or "stink bug" look. The fix is either upgrade the suspension with HD springs or take out the drawers. I elected to take out the drawers.

The weight didn't affect handling, it just made my rig look stupid. So as someone mentioned that it depends on where you put the weight. Ideally, you want to evenly disperse the weight around your rig.

In regards to steel vs aluminum, it depends on what you want to do. I went with steel sliders and aluminum skids, mainly because I don't rock crawl, and I don't want to add more weight. However, I've been on trails where I slid sideways, so thats why I went with steel sliders.

In regards to powdercoat vs krylon, again it depends on what you want to do. Both will require touching up. I use both. I tend to buy things powdercoated, but I touch up with krylon. It works for my needs.

As for 285's, you get different answers because every 4runner is different. When my 4runner was at stock height, 285s didn't rub unless I stuffed the tires. When I raised it, the 285s rubs on my body mount at full lock, then I made it worse with wheel spacers.... go figure right...lol. Adding aftermarket UCA's may fix the rubbing, then again it may not. For me, UCA's didnt' fix my rubbing but it did allow me to get proper aligment after going to 3 inches.

I've only needed a winch once in my 38 years of existence, and that one time, I REAAALLLY WISHED I HAD A WINCH (i was playing in a mud hole). word of advice, don't play in mudholes, you will NEVER get all the mud out of the crevices of your rig, even years later, when it rained I find mud under my rig/or on my driveway that oozed out of some random crevice in the chassis.

However, I'm cheap so a snatch strap, some shackles, and some fake maxtrax have gotten me out of all other stupid crap that I got stuck in. With that said, I want a winch. However, as someone mentioned you may want to upgrade your suspension if you plan on putting a winch on.

You don't need to powdercoat, or paint aluminum. People powdercoat it or paint it because they don't like how raw aluminum looks (it turns dull over time due to oxidation). I left all the aluminum parts on my rig in its raw state, and every once in a while, I'll polish it up with meguires metal polish just for the bling bling.

As for steel anything, it will rust if left in its raw state. As for how fast steel rusts, will depend on where you live. I live by the beach, if you breath on steel here, it will rust. Bottom line is if its steel, you have to protect it against rust, if its aluminum you don't.

As for your question on lifts in very caveman terms. If you lift your rig to 2 inches, you will gain 2 inches in height, but you aren't gaining 2 inches in suspension travel because its pretty much static (you are changing the suspension geometry only) unless you go with a long travel setup. The higher you go up, the less down travel your suspension has (if all your suspension components are stock). As for tires, your talking about diameter, so a 2 inch increase in total diameter of the tire, will give you 1 inch of lift. So if you go from 265s to 285s, you gain approximately 1 inch of lift.

As for raising your suspension, and ride comfort....lol......... By upgrading your suspension, you will gain better performance but usually at the expense of comfort. I have kings, and my rig doesnt feel like its riding on a cushion of clouds (as what alot of people like to say). It is better than 99.999999% percent of all other aftermarket suspensions when it comes to comfort, but it is not better than OEM when it comes to comfort. However, it will outperform oem suspension any day of the week (even at the malls).

My advice to you, is if you are going to upgrade your suspension, you should calculate the weight you want to add, and what your needs are because suspension installs aren't cheap and neither is suspension components. A suspension built for overlanding (er...road trips) is going to be different than a desert racer, vs. a rock crawler vs a mall crawler.

lastly, don't read to much into my post, i'm simplifying everything as much as possible, but the basics are there.

 

[GogDog]

Love the caveman speak....that's exactly what I need right now. Love your other advice too. Honestly, its embarrassing that I still don't quite understand how coilovers/lifts work but I'm sure there are a 100 youtube videos that can help.

 

[Throwback]

One thing that jumps out in your first post is that you still need to have the truck low enough for your kids to get in, or you need to add steps. Most sliders stick out far enough that you can use them for a step to reach up on the roof, but they don't really drop down enough to be much help as a step, as the "step" platform is only like 2" below the door sill.

If you want to lift your truck just because you want to, go ahead, nothing wrong with that. As far as I can tell 99% of trucks on this forum (and in general) are lifted mainly because guys like tinkering with their trucks and it looks nice. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Have you played with the truck off road yet? In 4L with the locker on these things are amazing and the OEM suspension is actually really flexy. When I ride trails I routinely have my tires at full stuff on the OEM suspension which is why I run stock size tires so I don't have to worry about rubbing.

For an immediate practical upgrade you would do well with a full set of aluminum skids like RCI and a set of sliders. Throw on a set of 265 BFG KO2s C-Load (plus a 5th for the spare), and get some good recovery straps, shackles, some knock off maxtrax, a battery jump box, and a Viair 88P air compressor.

Keep in mind that most vehicle shocks "wear out" before 100k miles so you'll have to swap suspension at some point if you hang on to the vehicle. Since you'll be spending money anyway it would be a great time to throw on a simple 2" Old Man Emu lift (shocks and coils - 2883/2895e) without just throwing away money for looks (that really nobody other than you will notice anyway).

That's my plan, but I'm only at 49k miles so I've got a while. I just run stock size KO2s with no additional armor and carry good recovery gear and a Viair 88P. I still get 19mpg average too.

 

[Off2Mtns]

Start with a few essentials. Better tires; I’d suggest stock size to maintain your powertrain warranty, power, and full economy. Sliders and full skids for cheap insurance; I prefer steel but like to play in the San Juan rocks; powdercoat or paint steel, leave aluminum bare. An air compressor and set of Staun deflators for tire pressure changes for traction and comfort. That gear will get you thru the Rubicon, according to Toyota, lol. If you add a winch, plan to upgrade at least your front suspension, but a set of traction boards as a couple have suggested would probably benefit you nearly as much as the winch and let you keep the stock suspension and a fair bit of money; I added a winch to my Xterra for peace of mind but in 8 years of running with it on moderate trails in the Rockies and aside from some testing/playing I used it… not once. I’m a big proponent of a mild 2” lift to help with the ride comfort as well as approach, departure, and much-overlooked break-over angles, but many folks run around on the stock suspension just fine; depends where you wheel, but you really don’t need any of the above save for probably a better set of tires to run forest service roads.

Best advice: Get out and wheel it to figure out what doesn’t work and thus, what you need, then upgrade accordingly. There is no one size fits all way to build a rig. It will depend on personal preference, locale, wheeling style, and individual needs.

 

[GogDog]

Dang it, more voice of reason.

Basically...the true cost of adding a winch is significant since the consensus seems to be that you do need to upgrade suspension to handle it. So, its $700 for bumper, $600 winch, mid grade suspension installed can be around $2000....that's $3300. I'm not sure I would pay that much for a winch.

The alternative is getting 265 or 275 AT tires that can still look aggressive, change out the wheels (aesthetic only), so the wife is satisfied. 275s would still give a 1/2" boost to clearance and won't hurt my MPG as much. After all....one of the main reasons of switching to a 4runner over the 5.7 V8 tundra is better fuel economy so big tires and a lift kills that.

So then it would be ->
265 or 275 AT tires
Aftermarket wheels of choice
Sell stock wheels/tires on CL or here for ...I'm guessing around $700
Install sliders
Install full aluminum skids
HID lows
LED interior conversion
Plastidip badging
Tint front windows
I already have the rubber floor mats

 

[The Waco Kid]

The alternative is getting 265 or 275 AT tires that can still look aggressive, change out the wheels (aesthetic only), so the wife is satisfied. 275s would still give a 1/2" boost to clearance and won't hurt my MPG as much. After all....one of the main reasons of switching to a 4runner over the 5.7 V8 tundra is better fuel economy so big tires and a lift kills that.

So then it would be ->
265 or 275 AT tires
Aftermarket wheels of choice
Sell stock wheels/tires on CL or here for ...I'm guessing around $700
Install sliders
Install full aluminum skids
HID lows
LED interior conversion
Plastidip badging
Tint front windows
I already have the rubber floor mats

What about 255/80/17s? That'll give you the ground clearance you want and would keep the tire weight down and the rolling resistance down for your gas mileage.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/169776-anyone-running-255-80-17-tires-pizza-cutters.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/111872-255-80-17-km2-lifted-2011-4runner-te.html#post1025672