How to Build the Ultimate Winter Vehicle (3rd Gen) for $10,000

[repo]

It takes a while getting used to the ABS. You should have seen the first time I drove my 09 tocuma on fresh snow. I tried to drive it like the 98 Tocumas in 2wd or the older toyota pickup trucks drove in the snow. I had all the VSC lights on TRAC lights on and was sideways on the road in less then a min. Then I figured out what all this changed and was able to drive it with no issues.

I've never had a problem with ABS in other vehicles but on the 3rd gen it seems to be really poorly designed. It works ok on fresh snow but in packed snow, ice, slush it basically turns off my brakes until I do a leg-press on the pedal. I have to play it super careful on ice and start feathering it like 1/4 mile from a stop. Brake system is in good shape otherwise and I even tried replacing the ABS rings and stuff like that. I've read other people complaining about it and some people have just pulled the ABS fuse. Heard a lot of complaints about the 3rd gen VSC too, but my 99 doesnt have VSC.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

I just took my trucks snows to the house. One tire has a bubble. They were worn below the siping on two of the 4 tires anyway do they only had the studs going on.

18 years at 80-90psi may have taken its toll.


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[brillo_76]

I just took my trucks snows to the house. One tire has a bubble. They were worn below the siping on two of the 4 tires anyway do they only had the studs going on.

18 years at 80-90psi may have taken its toll.


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Bogus. New Tires for you it's looking like.

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[brillo_76]

I've never had a problem with ABS in other vehicles but on the 3rd gen it seems to be really poorly designed. It works ok on fresh snow but in packed snow, ice, slush it basically turns off my brakes until I do a leg-press on the pedal. I have to play it super careful on ice and start feathering it like 1/4 mile from a stop. Brake system is in good shape otherwise and I even tried replacing the ABS rings and stuff like that. I've read other people complaining about it and some people have just pulled the ABS fuse. Heard a lot of complaints about the 3rd gen VSC too, but my 99 doesnt have VSC.

I dont have issues with my ABS on my 98 and it rarely even kicks in. So you pull your fuse on the ABS in the winter?

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[BoomerBob]

I've never had a problem with ABS in other vehicles but on the 3rd gen it seems to be really poorly designed. It works ok on fresh snow but in packed snow, ice, slush it basically turns off my brakes until I do a leg-press on the pedal. I have to play it super careful on ice and start feathering it like 1/4 mile from a stop. Brake system is in good shape otherwise and I even tried replacing the ABS rings and stuff like that. I've read other people complaining about it and some people have just pulled the ABS fuse. Heard a lot of complaints about the 3rd gen VSC too, but my 99 doesnt have VSC.

Do you remember where the ABS fuse is? Is it under the little panel under the dash by the drivers side door?

 

[brillo_76]

Do you remember where the ABS fuse is? Is it under the little panel under the dash by the drivers side door?

I know a pile of folks that just pull that fuse. They do the same on the tocumas.


Look at what that article did to this thread Bob. Now we are on ABS issues...lol..

It was good to see a 3rd gen 4runner used as a winter machine though. I mostly use good old Tetanus 1 as my winter sleigh.




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[19963.4lsr5]

ABS has saved my ass enough I wish I had it when I don’t. My current 2002 S series Saturn lacks ABS like my older 96 S Series did and I hate not having it in the snow approaching a intersection. It’s saved my ass too many times to not have it.

I’ve not been disappointed yet when ABS kicked in in my previous 4Runners. Sadly my 04 Jeep Grand Cherokee preformed better in ice and snow than any of the three 4Runners have. The Quadra track Jeep was a snowmobile with rubber tires. The Limited 04 Jeep with Quadra-Drive was unstoppable. It had hydraulic lockers in each axle plus one in the transfer case between the two axles.


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[BoomerBob]

I know a pile of folks that just pull that fuse. They do the same on the tocumas.

Look at what that article did to this thread Bob. Now we are on ABS issues...lol..

It was good to see a 3rd gen 4runner used as a winter machine though. I mostly use good old Tetanus 1 as my winter sleigh.

The way I see it is a forum is a written conversation a lot of the time and just like any conversation; it twists and turns away from the original topic.

I get some topics should be stayed with but that just isn't how people talk in conversations unless it's a highly focused conversation and some are on forums too I think.

 

[Bad Luck]

Do you remember where the ABS fuse is? Is it under the little panel under the dash by the drivers side door?

I thought it was part of the main fuse block? I thought you had to take the main fuse block apart to pull the fuse.

 

[toyotaspeed90]

ABS has saved my ass enough I wish I had it when I don’t. My current 2002 S series Saturn lacks ABS like my older 96 S Series did and I hate not having it in the snow approaching a intersection. It’s saved my ass too many times to not have it.

I’ve not been disappointed yet when ABS kicked in in my previous 4Runners. Sadly my 04 Jeep Grand Cherokee preformed better in ice and snow than any of the three 4Runners have. The Quadra track Jeep was a snowmobile with rubber tires. The Limited 04 Jeep with Quadra-Drive was unstoppable. It had hydraulic lockers in each axle plus one in the transfer case between the two axles.


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Sounds like you're driving to fast or braking too late.


As for a center diff lock.... that's really for all wheel drive vehicles where the center is always running power to front and rear - then needs to be locked to ensure power is delivered to both axles in low traction events.

When a true transfercase is shifted from 2wd to 4wd, the gear change "locks" 4wd in the same way.

The 3rd gens (at least the J shift I have) works this way. My 01 LX470 is full time 4wd with a center locking diff - but it's really not a "feature" per day. F/R lockers can be useful in snow and is the only reason my old 93 LC was better than the LX in the snow.

 

[barongan]

Nice thread, thanks for posting

 

[19963.4lsr5]

Sounds like you're driving to fast or braking too late.





As for a center diff lock.... that's really for all wheel drive vehicles where the center is always running power to front and rear - then needs to be locked to ensure power is delivered to both axles in low traction events.



When a true transfercase is shifted from 2wd to 4wd, the gear change "locks" 4wd in the same way.



The 3rd gens (at least the J shift I have) works this way. My 01 LX470 is full time 4wd with a center locking diff - but it's really not a "feature" per day. F/R lockers can be useful in snow and is the only reason my old 93 LC was better than the LX in the snow.

The Grand Cherokee has a low range transfer case. In low range the two driveshafts are mechanically locked together. In high range The hydraulic coupler in the NP247 transfer case is connected between the drive shafts. (Stator and rotor). And difference in speed between the driveshafts creates hydraulic pressure locking the front driveshaft.

I’ve driven both the jeep and the 4Runner in snow and ice of all kinds and since I don’t 4 wheel with the 4Runner on purpose, I prefer the Quadra-Drive system.

Off roading I use/ used my Cummins. And it’s been everywhere it would fit in the TowerCity, PA area.

Driving too fast? Maybe if 35mph in snow is too fast, someone in front of me panicking sometimes...

I’ve never had a instance where 4 wheel ABS has almost caused me to have an accident.

But these are my specific experiences. Others will vary and not like what I like. I’m totally fine with that. My roads in south central PA are always turning and going up a hill or down a hill nothing is flat. If it is is only for a 1/4 mile. I live in the Lebanon valley. And follow the South Mountain to and from Hershey PA for work.


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[3bears]

Well I run standard size tires and rims and the studs will make your tires last longer but can be more dangerous when it rains because you are littery riding on the stud tips. They are best suited for freezing rain and thin ice on the roads. So you have to drive differently slightly when studs are in use. They also take longer for a vehicle to stop too.


These are just snow tires that have the ability to have studs put in them when new as you cant put studs in used tires.

The treadlife of these tires probably depends on where you live. Around the roads here being in PA with the potholes and they would last probably 20 to 40k miles max.

Just running them in winter naturally let's you get several seasons out of them depending on how much you drive.


Mine are getting fairly warn and was debating on getting another 4 for this season. I will take a photo of them for you so you can see what I use. Just keep in mind I probably only have 4/32 left on the center of the tire. So they are warn down and actually been on the rig year round for a year or 2.

They are a tubeless tire. Nothing super fancy but they work very good on snow and ice.


Another winter tire would be a blizzak tires I just dont know if they make them in our tire size.

They have a softer rubber on them that grips the snow and ice but they be good for only one winter as that material wears off faster.

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as far as blizzaks
well this my first winter not running studs, switched to blizzaks
our size ? yes..but im running 265/75/16 but the factory 4runner size is available
one year ? well my son is on his 3rd winter with his blizzaks on his taco and they grip great still, I was so impressed that's why I switched to blizzaks ( my studs and snows were worn out and needed replaced).
My daughter in laws f250 on her 2nd season with blizzaks

My studded were so good and these blizzaks seem great too. In 4wd and my locker, since owning (2015) I have never needed to put my chains on and im in snow/ice at least 5 months a year. Supposed to get 6-9 inches of snow tonight

but I also will give you, we all have different driving conditions and road conditions across the usa, ( and we don't use salt up here ), so maybe some people only get one good season out of them, They also don't plow roads often so you are constantly driving on snow and rarely bare pavement, that might add to the longivity

 

[Brian.]

Driving too fast? Maybe if 35mph in snow is too fast, someone in front of me panicking sometimes...

I think the confusing part is that most of us with winter experience (I was boring and raised in Wyoming, have a couple hundred thousand miles worth of winter driving experiences in the Rockies, maybe another 20k in WA and 20k in MD) is that we don't have ABS come on, ever. I'd actually intentionally try to get it to come on every now and then just to make sure it was still working.

My general thoughts is that if ABS is coming on, you're not driving to the road conditions (or your tires). Speed is irrelevant. 5mph is too fast on glare ice, and I destroyed the front end of a Subaru in proving that (stupid -20f and snow berm, plastic exploded everywhere). That you're talking about how Often yours comes on just raises a ton of red flags to me.

But I haven't driven in PA in the winter. The closest I've done is ride a motorcycle around WV in the winter (accident, was nice in DC/VA, started snowing on me after I got into WV). I know that East coast snow is completely different than Rockies snow. And West cost snow is more similar to Rockies than the East coast. No clue on how PA cares for its roads... in the Rockies there are so few that it's not difficult to hit them all with sand in the spots that need it. With the multitude of paved-over goat tracks that make up most roads in the mid-Atlantic and NE states there may simply not be time or money.

Bottom line, without having a better comparison, it's silly to cast judgements about driving.


As for the Original point of this thread and that $10k "ultimate winter vehicle"... I just gotta LOL. Lights are irrelevant... it's perfectly possible to drive without lights in the middle of the night in the winter, safely. All that white and a full moon, it's brighter than some overcast days. Make it a heavy snow and more light is just reflecting back at you/making blinding conditions. It'd almost be better to have the lights on a rheostat to "dial in" the amount of light that's useful. Front winch mount/winch/bumper is laughable too... drive to the road conditions and you can navigate Anywhere paved in a car with 4" of ground clearance (been there, done that, put 300k miles on a VW Jetta in the Rockies, going skiing, snowshoeing, and generally being outdoorsy in the winter).

The 2 best things I've ever done for winter driving are Good tires and getting some professional winter driving coaching. Tires are easy, anyone can get good tires with next to no effort. The driving education is harder, but the main piece of information is knowing how much traction you have to spend, and only spending it on One thing at a time. Be that acceleration, turning or braking. Combine 2 of those things and you're bound to find the limits of your traction. That driver education happens to be cross-vehicle compatible (and a lot of it was familiar from my road-racing days if any of you have done that), so move from the 4runner to a FWD commuter car to a RWD sports car, you can still get around without being a hazard on the roads. Well worth the money and time spent.... I'm going to refresh when I get back into a state that has a winter to live full time.

 

[brillo_76]

as far as blizzaks

well this my first winter not running studs, switched to blizzaks

our size ? yes..but im running 265/75/16 but the factory 4runner size is available

one year ? well my son is on his 3rd winter with his blizzaks on his taco and they grip great still, I was so impressed that's why I switched to blizzaks ( my studs and snows were worn out and needed replaced).

My daughter in laws f250 on her 2nd season with blizzaks



My studded were so good and these blizzaks seem great too. In 4wd and my locker, since owning (2015) I have never needed to put my chains on and im in snow/ice at least 5 months a year. Supposed to get 6-9 inches of snow tonight



but I also will give you, we all have different driving conditions and road conditions across the usa, ( and we don't use salt up here ), so maybe some people only get one good season out of them, They also don't plow roads often so you are constantly driving on snow and rarely bare pavement, that might add to the longivity

I know some folks that swear by them and great to know they come in our size. Thanks.

Be very thankful your area doesn't use salt. As your roads, bridges and vehicles will last a lot longer. :]

I am also in the natural gas shale area. So we get lots of road damage from vehicles that are way to heavy to be in the road. This is part of the reason all the roads are grooved around here.

If we have level roads around. The more aggressive tire patterns would work without gripping the road and throwing your rig all over the place.

However, it is what it is.

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[MSRP.]

I think the confusing part is that most of us with winter experience (I was boring and raised in Wyoming, have a couple hundred thousand miles worth of winter driving experiences in the Rockies, maybe another 20k in WA and 20k in MD) is that we don't have ABS come on, ever. I'd actually intentionally try to get it to come on every now and then just to make sure it was still working.

My general thoughts is that if ABS is coming on, you're not driving to the road conditions (or your tires). Speed is irrelevant. 5mph is too fast on glare ice, and I destroyed the front end of a Subaru in proving that (stupid -20f and snow berm, plastic exploded everywhere). That you're talking about how Often yours comes on just raises a ton of red flags to me.

But I haven't driven in PA in the winter. The closest I've done is ride a motorcycle around WV in the winter (accident, was nice in DC/VA, started snowing on me after I got into WV). I know that East coast snow is completely different than Rockies snow. And West cost snow is more similar to Rockies than the East coast. No clue on how PA cares for its roads... in the Rockies there are so few that it's not difficult to hit them all with sand in the spots that need it. With the multitude of paved-over goat tracks that make up most roads in the mid-Atlantic and NE states there may simply not be time or money.

Bottom line, without having a better comparison, it's silly to cast judgements about driving.


As for the Original point of this thread and that $10k "ultimate winter vehicle"... I just gotta LOL. Lights are irrelevant... it's perfectly possible to drive without lights in the middle of the night in the winter, safely. All that white and a full moon, it's brighter than some overcast days. Make it a heavy snow and more light is just reflecting back at you/making blinding conditions. It'd almost be better to have the lights on a rheostat to "dial in" the amount of light that's useful. Front winch mount/winch/bumper is laughable too... drive to the road conditions and you can navigate Anywhere paved in a car with 4" of ground clearance (been there, done that, put 300k miles on a VW Jetta in the Rockies, going skiing, snowshoeing, and generally being outdoorsy in the winter).

The 2 best things I've ever done for winter driving are Good tires and getting some professional winter driving coaching. Tires are easy, anyone can get good tires with next to no effort. The driving education is harder, but the main piece of information is knowing how much traction you have to spend, and only spending it on One thing at a time. Be that acceleration, turning or braking. Combine 2 of those things and you're bound to find the limits of your traction. That driver education happens to be cross-vehicle compatible (and a lot of it was familiar from my road-racing days if any of you have done that), so move from the 4runner to a FWD commuter car to a RWD sports car, you can still get around without being a hazard on the roads. Well worth the money and time spent.... I'm going to refresh when I get back into a state that has a winter to live full time.

+1 to training or miles under your belt. (center diff locked with full throttle and full steering lock is fun)
ABS coming on often could be the cultprit of fouled sensors though. Mine are of uncertain age and gave me headaches coming on at weird times (on snow tires, nowhere near the actual braking threshold), I'll be disconnecting mine this winter mainly because I need consistency when I hit the no-go pedal. Mine is even weirder cause there are no faults in the non-winter seasons, but once it gets really cold, the abs light stays on after 20-30 mins of driving on each startup.

 

[spartacus]

I use both my 3rd and my 5th Gen for winter. Just wash the belly of the trucks quiet frequently after driving in snow and mag chloride. Help keeps rust at bay. After driving through the last snow storm in my 3rd Gen the abs did awesome. Freezing temps made the roads really icy, specially up inclines also when going downhill as soon as I stepped on the brakes the abs would kick in and would keep the truck from sliding and going diagnal. Saw bunch of all wheel drive fancy suv's sliding all over the place even saw semi's just parked in the right lane with hazards, on i-25 couldn't go up mild inclines. Made it to work and back to the family with confidence. So I am thankful for my 3rd Gen this thanks giving day among other blessings.

 

[brillo_76]

I am suspecting quite a few 3rd gens would now have abs issues due to their age, sensors starting to fail and components going.

I have 2 in my fleet with ABS lights on. So eventually, I be going through their systems and seeing what is wrong. We have to jumper two wires to get the codes to flash out on the light and go from there. They are not in the rebuild queue as of yet. I have the FSM so not a big deal.





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[Rallysport]

My winter driving tip that I always use is drive like there is an egg between my foot and the pedals. In other words, do nothing abruptly - smooth and easy all the way, so you don't break the egg. Unless you mean to, of course.

 

[brillo_76]

Nothing wrong with that. The main thing in winter is to have winter tires and take your time. When the snow flys and the ice builds up on the roads. Everyone needs to simply slow down. That's the best thing everyone can do.

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