I win......hahahaha!

[czm3]

As some of you know, I am a BMW guy that tows to a lot of race tracks across the Northeast.

My business partner would definitely prefer if we'd just tow with X5s.

So I am towing about 4000 lbs when I pull up to Dan who is towing about 3500 lbs with an X5 with a 4.4L V8. I got on the two way and told him I wanted to race up the hill.

I was shocked to have the Toy pull ahead of the BMW. Two more trys with the same results. Pretty incredible. Once again, I say the 4R is the best tower in its class.

Lots of trash talking occured the following Monday at the shop.......

 

[Koz]

Low RPM torque will win every time.

Koz

 

[Casper]

an x5 is a shitty trailer rig.... the M62 engine in a 4.4L X5 isnt designed as a tow rig.

 

[TeCKis300]

What do those X5 4.4L's weigh? What is the motor rated at?

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Low RPM torque will win every time.

Koz

Maybe off the line... After that it's horsepower horsepower horsepower, especially with 5 speed transmissions...

 

[Thai]

Maybe off the line... After that it's horsepower horsepower horsepower, especially with 5 speed transmissions...

But towing makes torque more important....

 

[abin]

no surprise, at all.

With my V6, it completed pretty damn brownie good job many times. Not to mention when it is a V8.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

But towing makes torque more important....

Torque is always important because it's horsepower's cousin. The question is how much did "low RPM" torque matter? How much time did the tach spend below 2000 RPM?

 

[Mark86]

I am very unimpressed with the X5 in general. My parents have owned two of them and they are the biggest headaches around. The X5 is more of a 'sporty' SUV rather than towing/rugged SUV like the 4Runner. What you said doesn't surprise me. In addition, the cargo space on an X5 is even smaller than the 5 series wagon. What year X5 does he have? The 2004-current have more power than the older ones and a 6-speed automatic transmission.

 

[vandert]

Hahahaha

Here's the other side of the story,

I was on the autobahn the other day, A62 on the way to my house and in the Runner by myself so I rolled up on a 4.4 X5 and floored it, I then proceeded to watch hiim walk, wait, run away from me like I wasn't moving. I ran to cutoff, we were at about 80-85 when we started playing and by the time I hit cutoff he was a good 3-5 car lengths on me.

I've driven both, for my uses the Runner's more practical, however, the BMWr will eat your ass all day on the bahn, unless you've got a supercharged 8. Sorry, it's just facts,

I don't doubt for minute taht you outpull him though, so kudos to you.

T

 

[Koz]

A vehicle that makes more torque sooner will tow better every time. That

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Torque across a wide RPM range is nice for the typical towing application, I agree. But we're talking about what "wins every time" and that's horsepower, not low rpm torque. After you're halfway though first gear, low RPM torque is meaningless. To win the drag race (regardless of what you're towing) you want the tach to be as close to peak HP (NOT torque) as possible. The real advantage the 4Runner had in this case is it's low first gear, not it's 200 RPM sooner peak torque.

 

[4RunnerRon]

Re: 4Runner vs. X5 on the Autobahn

Vandert, I read your post about your experience with the X5 on the autobahn. It made sense, but keep in mind you are driving with the 4.0 V6. The person who started this post was towing with the 4.7 V8, which is more competitive with the X5, and therefore the reason a comparison was even made. The X5s are fast SUVs and I think only the V8 4Runner has a chance at chasing one down.

 

[vandert]

Understand that

but, in these conditions, my 4.0 has beaten a few of the 03-04 v8's it pulls hard. The 05's I haven't gotten the pleasure of playing with but expect to loose to the VVti 8.

The older 6 like in my 04 was stronger up top than the v8 in the 03-04's, not down low but it pulled it up top. I tried several times. Not dogging the engine by any means, but the only one that has a better shot with the x5 in this situatiion is the 05-06 v8, an 03-04 v8 wouldn't do any better.

Just stating experience here, not hearsay.

T

 

[Mark86]

Re: Understand that

but, in these conditions, my 4.0 has beaten a few of the 03-04 v8's it pulls hard. The 05's I haven't gotten the pleasure of playing with but expect to loose to the VVti 8.

The older 6 like in my 04 was stronger up top than the v8 in the 03-04's, not down low but it pulled it up top. I tried several times. Not dogging the engine by any means, but the only one that has a better shot with the x5 in this situatiion is the 05-06 v8, an 03-04 v8 wouldn't do any better.

Just stating experience here, not hearsay.

T

When my parents owned their V8 X5, I had my 2003 V8 Sport. I never drag raced the two vehicles but I did follow the X5 in my 4Runner a few times and I was able to keep up with them on the hard accelerations. My prediction would be that a 2003 4Runner V8 would be able to keep up with an 01-03 V8 X5 until around 50 mph. The 2005 4Runners would probably be neck and neck until around 80-90 mph I don't think any 4Runner really has a chance of beating or even keeping up with the new V8 X5's at higher speeds.

Once again, you have to take into consideration that the X5 and 4Runner are not meant for the same crowd nor are they in anyway competition for each other. I don't even consider the GX470 a competitor to the X5 because they are two completely different vehicles. X5=spped and sporty and 4Runner= rugged and what an SUV really should be!! Oh, and the 4Runner is also way ahead of the X5 in reliability!! :

 

[czm3]

The Toyota doesnt stand a chance against the X5 otherwise. However, when towing, the story changes. I think a lot had to do with gearing, which is why I beat him.

I was surprised (amused) with pulling on him with the trailer. There isnt any question in my mind, which is the better tow vehicle hence the 4Runner in my garage. The X5 has a peakyier torque curve and a transmission to match. It was never designed with towing as a priority as the average X5 owner probably will never tow, or go off-road.

As far as the X5 drivers in Germany, I always love asking them what they think about driving an American truck. Most of them dont even know that their truck was built in SC.

 

[Koz]

Torque across a wide RPM range is nice for the typical towing application, I agree. But we're talking about what "wins every time" and that's horsepower, not low rpm torque. After you're halfway though first gear, low RPM torque is meaningless. To win the drag race (regardless of what you're towing) you want the tach to be as close to peak HP (NOT torque) as possible. The real advantage the 4Runner had in this case is it's low first gear, not it's 200 RPM sooner peak torque.

I agree that when drag racing you want to get to peak HP ASAP and stay in that peak while shifting (most of the time) and I agree that a low first gear helps. Do you know that the 4Runner has a lower first gear then the BMW? But I disagree with racing while towing (which is silly), you would want to keep the RPM range at peek torque.

Also in drag racing the reaction time and first 60 feet is where you win or lose a drag race, which makes torque very important. Let me give you an example; the two most popular motorcycles that are used for drag racing are the Suzuki Hayabusa and the Kawasaki ZX12. In stock form they are probably the two closest vehicles in drag racing. The difference in performance is 1/100 of a second in the quarter mile (10.06 to 10.07 at 140mph). Yet they are designed very different and make their power completely different. The Busa is 1300cc and the 12 is 1200cc, yet the 12 makes more HP, revs higher, and is lighter. The Busa is heavier and makes more torque. Based on your comments you would think the 12 would be quicker but because of the low end torque of the Busa it takes a 2 or 3 bike lead by the end of second gear, then the 12 reaches peek HP and starts to reel the Busa in. By the time they reach the finish line they are wheel to wheel. If the there was an additional 20 feet the 12 would win (the 12 has a higher top speed). Also the Busa runs a better time shifting near peek torque while the 12 runs better shifting at peek HP. What usually happens when these two bikes (stock) race is the better rider wins every time no matter which bike he/she is on. The exception is top speed, HP usually wins. So, what I

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Do you know that the 4Runner has a lower first gear then the BMW?

Yes, that's why I said "The real advantage the 4Runner had in this case is it's low first gear." If they had the same first gear ratio then neither would have an advantage. First gear is probably where the race was won.

But I disagree with racing while towing (which is silly), you would want to keep the RPM range at peek torque.

To get maximum acceleration you must shift gears to keep the RPM near peak horsepower. Even if you're towing a bus, it's still true. I can prove this with math if I have to, I've done it before. Just take my word for it and save us some time.

Also in drag racing the reaction time and first 60 feet is where you win or lose a drag race, which makes torque very important.

Remember the 1995 GPZ1100? Despite the fact that is was tuned for killer low and midrange punch and had a slightly longer wheelbase, the ZX-11 still kicked the crap out of it in the 1/4 mile. Even though the GPZ had a great 60 ft time, it was over 100 ft behind the ZX-11 at the end of the 1/4 mile.

I read the ZX-12R vs. Busa "way into the 9's" article too, and I seem to remember Rickey saying something about the Busa being easier to launch because of it's lower center of gravity. The 12R can burnout or wheelie easily in first gear, so it's not hurting from lack of torque. The Busa and the 12R are not that different in their power delivery, and I'll bet if you looked at a rear wheel torque vs. MPH graph they'd look pretty similar.

 

[TeCKis300]

The age old torque vs rpm.

hp = torque X rpm

torque by itself is meaningless....

It is the ability to acheive high torque in the most used area of the rpm band that wins races.

 

[Koz]

Yes, that's why I said "The real advantage the 4Runner had in this case is it's low first gear." If they had the same first gear ratio then neither would have an advantage. First gear is probably where the race was won.

What is the ratio for the 4Runner's first gear? (V8-5speed)


"Remember the 1995 GPZ1100? Despite the fact that is was tuned for killer low and midrange punch and had a slightly longer wheelbase, the ZX-11 still kicked the crap out of it in the 1/4 mile. Even though the GPZ had a great 60 ft time, it was over 100 ft behind the ZX-11 at the end of the 1/4 mile."

Comparing the GPZ and ZX11 is apples and oranges. I've owned both. I sold my ZX11 (had it for 10 years) to buy the ZX12R, which I have hit the rev limiter in sixth gear at approx 192mph. (180rwhp)


"I read the ZX-12R vs. Busa "way into the 9's" article too, and I seem to remember Rickey saying something about the Busa being easier to launch because of it's lower center of gravity. The 12R can burnout or wheelie easily in first gear, so it's not hurting from lack of torque. The Busa and the 12R are not that different in their power delivery, and I'll bet if you looked at a rear wheel torque vs. MPH graph they'd look pretty similar."

The 12 and Busa (stock) are almost identical in performance; 1/4 mile and top speed, but they make their power COMPLETELY different. The 12 is lighter, makes more HP, less torque. It has 100 less CCs, revs approx 500 rpm higher, has higher compression (must use 91 octane) and very aggressive cam profiles. The Busa has a bigger displacement engine with less compression (uses 86 octane), mild cam profiles and revs less. The busa is quicker to 150 mph because of its higher/flater torque curve. After 150 mph the 12s hp and higher revving engine has the advantage.

The advantage the Busa (stock) has launching is a longer wheelbase, not a lower center og gravity. The 12 has a fake gas tank (plastic cover), the tank is actually under the seat, which is one reason it has a low center of gravity.

Koz