I win......hahahaha!

[IIIBradIII]

The Toyota doesnt stand a chance against the X5 otherwise. However, when towing, the story changes. I think a lot had to do with gearing, which is why I beat him.

I was surprised (amused) with pulling on him with the trailer. There isnt any question in my mind, which is the better tow vehicle hence the 4Runner in my garage. The X5 has a peakyier torque curve and a transmission to match. It was never designed with towing as a priority as the average X5 owner probably will never tow, or go off-road.

As far as the X5 drivers in Germany, I always love asking them what they think about driving an American truck. Most of them dont even know that their truck was built in SC.

Haha, yep I'm sure they love hearing that. I drive past that plant every day on my way to work. The one thing it has done around here though is cheapened BMWs in the consumer's eyes because BMW gives such steep discounts to employees that they all drive one, so they're all over the place!

 

[bulldog-yota]

czm, was that the X5 with the Valvetronic and 6 spd tranny or the older one? I would be surprised if the 4R would get the drop on the new one with the 6 spd, but defintely on the old one though. The 6 spd has a good final drive 4.1 and the gears are pretty low.

What has racing bikes got to do with SUVs pulling heavy trailers up hills??? Gearing and TQ is what makes all the difference in pulling up heavy loads on hills. It is very easy to get caugth between 2 gears up a hill with a lot weight, one gear is too low and you basically run out of RPM and the next one is just too high for the engine output at that RPM vs the hill incline and weight, so the engine bogs down. Typical reason for autos to keep switching gears on long inclines while carrying a load. Pulling a heavy trailer and trying to race somebody exclamates it so much more.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

What has racing bikes got to do with SUVs pulling heavy trailers up hills???

Not much. I find it funny that Koz used that example then cried "apples and oranges" when proven wrong. He has clearly demonstrated that he does not fully understand torque and horsepower, so don't be shocked if he draws more unrelated comparisons.

 

[Koz]

Here is scenario; two trucks have a drag race while towing several thousand pounds. One truck is designed and tuned for high HP and the other is designed and tuned for high torque. Most everyone knows that when pulling a heavy load up a hill, on flat land, or drag racing, the way a vehicle makes torque and how much is going to be the deciding factor on which vehicle can pull better. This is where my comment comes in

 

[boston_kevin]

Don't forget the fact that these are Americanized BMW's. Get the real German BMW without the restrictions and you may have a different race. An american V8 against a german V8 (not Americanized with restrictor plates and down-tuning) should favor the German V8. Once you add the restrictor plates and the down-tuning, it's kinda like having a fixed Rotweiller... All show and no go. I used to travel to Germany a lot, and driving their 5 series versus the same 5 series in the US is like driving the 3rd gen toyota with the V6 vs the 4th gen V8. Big differences....

So in the US (which most of the dicucssions are about), the edge should go to the 4runner.

 

[love4runnin]

Nice car. I used to race in the BMW CCA events with a few E36 M3's One which was supercharged. I just recently sold my E39 M5 with Dinan S2 kt on it. I'm waiting for my E60 507BHP M5. I also happen to work for BMW(SHHHHH) I love the 4 runner and have had 3 of them. The X5 is extremely fast....faster then the 4 runner under any circumstances...except towing. See yah at the BMWCCA events!:cheers:

 

[love4runnin]

Don't forget the fact that these are Americanized BMW's. Get the real German BMW without the restrictions and you may have a different race. An american V8 against a german V8 (not Americanized with restrictor plates and down-tuning) should favor the German V8. Once you add the restrictor plates and the down-tuning, it's kinda like having a fixed Rotweiller... All show and no go. I used to travel to Germany a lot, and driving their 5 series versus the same 5 series in the US is like driving the 3rd gen toyota with the V6 vs the 4th gen V8. Big differences....

So in the US (which most of the dicucssions are about), the edge should go to the 4runner.

There is no such thing as an American BMW or a German BMW, they are all restricted to a set speed limit and the horsepower and torque curves are identical.Including the X5. By the way, they're built here in South Carolina.

 

[GatorGreg]

Hey guys, please be sure to abide by Rule Number Two, thanks.

 

[boston_kevin]

There is no such thing as an American BMW or a German BMW, they are all restricted to a set speed limit and the horsepower and torque curves are identical.Including the X5. By the way, they're built here in South Carolina.

There is a difference... European Vehicles (for destinations within Europe) have lower Emissions restrictions than the vehicles destined for the US. I am not sure about the X5, but this is definitely true to the 5 series sedan. Horsepower is rated at the engine, not at the wheels. Since the restrictions are a lot less in Europe, they can put more power to the wheels than they can in the US.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

Here is scenario; two trucks have a drag race while towing...

[snip]

Peace
Koz

Dear Koz,

Your previous post misrepresents many of the views I expressed and even borders on slander at some points. But instead of wasting a lot of time refuting it line by line, let's condense this into the core issue: Torque. Just for the record I never implied that torque could be ignored, it's an inseparable component of horsepower, hence the cousin remark (they're related). "Low RPM torque", is another matter and has limitations on what it can do for you. Once you understand that "torque" and "low RPM torque" are not interchangeable, you'll realize I did not back pedal.

Here are some silly statements, you go ahead and shoot them down if you can-

1. When drag racing a 4Runner (which has aways been the subject of this thread) "low RPM" torque has no relevance once the tach swings past 2500 RPM in 1st gear.

2. When towing a 7000 LB trailer up a hill, selecting a gear that puts the engine RPM at peak HORSEPOWER (NOT torque) will ALWAYS give you the highest pulling force / best acceleration. Selecting a gear that puts the engine RPM at peak torque does not.

Fire away...

P.S. If you have time, find some dyno charts of a 12R .vs a Busa (and some final drive ratios) and we'll put this "very different" power delivery issue to rest.

Hugs and Kisses,

Iowa4Runner

 

[bulldog-yota]

There is a difference... European Vehicles (for destinations within Europe) have lower Emissions restrictions than the vehicles destined for the US. I am not sure about the X5, but this is definitely true to the 5 series sedan. Horsepower is rated at the engine, not at the wheels. Since the restrictions are a lot less in Europe, they can put more power to the wheels than they can in the US.

Most western European countries are very strict on emissions, and probably more strict than the US. MOst manufacturers meet California emissions for the US, as it is the strictest in the US.

The problem for European engines in the US, is the low octane fuel that is sold here. Therefore engines tend to "detune" themselves or are calibrated for US fuel. Running on 98 Octane is a bit different to 91 or 87 for modern engines. It especially hurts engines with high compression and high specific output per capacity.

 

[love4runnin]

Most western European countries are very strict on emissions, and probably more strict than the US. MOst manufacturers meet California emissions for the US, as it is the strictest in the US.

The problem for European engines in the US, is the low octane fuel that is sold here. Therefore engines tend to "detune" themselves or are calibrated for US fuel. Running on 98 Octane is a bit different to 91 or 87 for modern engines. It especially hurts engines with high compression and high specific output per capacity.

Thank you! You hit the nail on the head. Here at BMW we rate all horsepower at the crank, not road HP. The difference between our HP and Euro HP( Which is usually only 2 or 3) is the fuel they test the engines on.We test at 91 octane, they test at 98 octane. Both engines are capapble of burning the same fuels from the factory with the same software. They are tuned identically, the knock sensors tell the DME what type of fuel is being run, and thus calculates accordingly.
Hope this helps!

Manny A
JMK BMW

 

[boston_kevin]

Well it has been a while since I was in Europe... Guess a lot has changed since the mid 90's. There was talk a long time ago about reducing emissions, but with all of the diesels on the road, no one could had a universal solution. Since then, I have only been in Italy and England, although my boss wouldn't let me rent the Ferrari or the Aston-Martin while I was there...

 

[vandert]

Sorry guys I live here

Thier fuel is worse than ours.

You go off base and buy gas, you see, 91, 95, 98, the equivalent of thier FRG rating system is: 86, 89, 90.5. We have better gas in the states.

They use a different system to rate gas, and it's more expensive.

Just FYI from someone who lives here.

If you would like, I can probably take some pictures of the pumps where they show you the comparisons. Just FYI, the fuel is not the reason.

T

 

[Koz]

P.S. If you have time, find some dyno charts of a 12R .vs a Busa (and some final drive ratios) and we'll put this "very different" power delivery issue to rest.


Iowa4Runner

I know this is a mistake and I said I would not reply to your posts but maybe you will be man enough to admit you may not know it all. Anyway, this chart will show the difference between a bigger engine tuned for lower rpm power compared to a smaller engine tuned for higher rpm power, yet both produce almost identical performance. The Busa is geared for 196mph and the 12 is geared for 200mph.

 

[bulldog-yota]

Re: Sorry guys I live here

Thier fuel is worse than ours.

You go off base and buy gas, you see, 91, 95, 98, the equivalent of thier FRG rating system is: 86, 89, 90.5. We have better gas in the states.

They use a different system to rate gas, and it's more expensive.

Just FYI from someone who lives here.

If you would like, I can probably take some pictures of the pumps where they show you the comparisons. Just FYI, the fuel is not the reason.

T

Yep you are right, forgot about how the measurements are done.
Pretty good explanation on the matter here
http://www.downshiftonline.com/new website/articles/stage1issue6/p12.shtml

However High Octane Euro gas is still higher than high octane US gas for the most part. I can only 91 here in CA and I think that is what is used by most manufacturers here for the power numbers. Every single article I have ever read about why cars produce less power (Euro and Japanese) in the US is the fuel. I'm not talking HP ratings, but performance numbers when tested.

Hope we are far enough off topic by now

 

[bulldog-yota]

Koz and Iowa,

My 4R will spank any of those 2 bikes on a 1/4 mile easily. I will probably have more than enough time to turn around and do the quarter mile a few times before they finish.


































Just hook a 4000lb trailer on them.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

I know this is a mistake and I said I would not reply to your posts but maybe you will be man enough to admit you may not know it all. Anyway, this chart will show the difference between a bigger engine tuned for lower rpm power compared to a smaller engine tuned for higher rpm power, yet both produce almost identical performance. The Busa is geared for 196mph and the 12 is geared for 200mph.

Looking at the torque graph, I just can't see how these machines are completely different in their power delivery. If you said the 1100XX was completely different I wouldn't argue, but the 12R and Busa's torque are always within 5%-10% of each other across the entire RPM range. Factor in the gearing difference and it's more like 4% to 9%.

About being "man enough", I guess I don't know what to say because I'm not sure what I should admit to. Give me specifics. Show me the error in my silly statements and I'll gladly fess up.

 

[Koz]

Looking at the torque graph, I just can't see how these machines are completely different in their power delivery. If you said the 1100XX was completely different I wouldn't argue, but the 12R and Busa's torque are always within 5%-10% of each other across the entire RPM range. Factor in the gearing difference and it's more like 4% to 9%.

About being "man enough", I guess I don't know what to say because I'm not sure what I should admit to. Give me specifics. Show me the error in my silly statements and I'll gladly fess up.

If you look at the Busa's HP curve you will see that it makes 5 to 10 HP more then the 12 up until it peaks at approx 8500 rpm which is directly proportional to the approx 10lb.-ft. of torque, which peaks at approx 7000 rpm. This is a result of 100 more CCs, a small bore & long stroke (81mm X 63mm) engine.

Now look at the 12, the HP curve shows that because of its design/tune it sacrificed HP & torque in the low and mid rpm range for high rpm HP & torque. Where the Busa

 

[Koz]

Koz and Iowa,

My 4R will spank any of those 2 bikes on a 1/4 mile easily. I will probably have more than enough time to turn around and do the quarter mile a few times before they finish. Just hook a 4000lb trailer on them.

I could run your 4Runner (in a 1/4 mile) with only first gear on my 12. I get 90mph out of first and 0-60 times in 2.6 sec. The problem is keeping it on the ground. I once raced (roll-on from 70 to about 130mph) a big block V8 (over 500 ci) Boss Hoss and spanked his ass.

Koz