Is the 4runner Trail Edition Too Complex??

[Thai]

Hey all,

While showering today and thinking of ways to solve world hunger, i was thinking just how complex the 5th gen 4runner 4wd system is! Ok, so, you're approaching the off-road park...what to do?

1. Stop, shift tranny to Neutral
2. Shift the Transfer case into 4-LO
3. Shift back into Drive
4. Press RSCA OFF button to turn off side curtain airbags
5. Press A-TRAC button to go into aggressive mode
6. Press Rear Locker button to lock the rear
7. Turn the CRAWL control to whatever speed you want
8. Turn the Multi-Terrain knob to the terrain you are driving

Granted, the last 4 steps are interchangeable and you may not need to use all of those modes. However, this is complex!! Can you imagine now if a person describes his off-road situation (say, being stuck on a climb) on the forum, you now have to post and ask him which of these 8 steps did he do and which ones he didn't do?!! :nono: Holy cow! Within the last two steps are even more options that you have to ask! Information overload...or technology overkill! And all i wanted to do was climb that anthill!!

IMHO, the combination of A-TRAC and rear locker makes CRAWL and Multi-Terrain (MT) obsolete and useless. I would bet that with A-TRAC and locker, i can beat anyone using the CRAWL and MT system. In vehicles without A-TRAC and rear locker, i can see where CRAWL and MT would be helpful...say, in the Land Cruiser for instance. However, with A-TRAC and rear locker, you don't need CRAWL or MT because they (A-TRAC & locker) allow you to just concentrate on pushing the gas pedal just enough to go as fast as necessary over a terrain. A-TRAC and locker are there to keep you moving forward at your own pace over any terrain.

For me, i wish that Toyota would just throw away the CRAWL and MT and put in KDSS as standard for the Trail Edition. Do you see Jeep Wrangler Rubicon making the anti-roll bar disconnect optional?? No, it is a standard feature because it is an OFF-ROAD feature. Toyota needs to make KDSS standard on the Trail Ed. because that is what it is used for! Get rid of all those knobs...they are confusing me when my checklist is already long enough to go through when hitting the trails! :driving:

This is why i think that the 2009 (4th gen) Trail Edition has the perfect 4wd technology combination...keep things simple...the last thing that you want on the trail is forgetting or turning on the wrong stuff!!:happens:

My thoughts....

 

[Uneek]

On a simpler note, I guess that's why the 5th gen Limited is 4H unlocked, 4H locked and 4L locked. So the manual probably reads, just turn the knob until you're free. If you're in in 4L locked, call a tow truck.

On a 4th gen V6 4WD, got stuck in 2H. Try 4H, still stuck. Now should one stay in 4H and go locked, or be in 4L unlocked? Still making no progress. Unlock and go to 4L, or stay locked and go to 4L?

Choices are good, but for the everyday driver and non-enthusiasts it's just confusion.

 

[K.C.]

I still haven't studied the 5th Gen...but I think the Crawl Control & Multi-Terrain is garbage.

To me...it's cheating, it's like using a camera & putting it in AUTO settings, I need my manual settings.

With CRAWL & MT...what's the whole fun & challenge.

Thai,

I've been getting into this off-roading culture...so I'm starting to understand more. I too agree w/ you...ATRAC & rear locker will kick ass over anyone w/ CRAWL & MT.

 

[Thai]

To me...it's cheating, it's like using a camera & putting it in AUTO settings, I need my manual settings.

Hey hey, watch it!! I love AUTO settings on cameras!! It is sad, but i actually did well in photography 101 in college...yet i still have no idea how to use a camera with manual settings! Back then, things go in one ear and go out the other....

Sorry about going off-topic....

 

[Thai]

On a 4th gen V6 4WD, got stuck in 2H. Try 4H, still stuck. Now should one stay in 4H and go locked, or be in 4L unlocked? Still making no progress. Unlock and go to 4L, or stay locked and go to 4L?

Choices are good, but for the everyday driver and non-enthusiasts it's just confusion.

You're right...just imagine if the Trail Ed. has a center differential!! Even more steps!! That would be enough reason NOT to have a center diff! My response to every inquiry about off-roading will be...:rtfm: because it is just too confusing!

 

[rook]

At least the buttons are grouped together in the overhead cluster.

If you want to talk about a more complicated truck, look at the F-150 Raptor. You can change settings for:

Traction control - 3 settings
ABS - 2 settings
ESP- (yaw stability control) - 3 settings
RSC (roll stability control) -3 settings
Rear E-locker - on / off / on in off-road mode


Off road button:
changes settings for e-locker,throttle mapping, transmission shifting, ABS slip and brake bias.

 

[4RBob]

For me, i wish that Toyota would just throw away the CRAWL and MT and put in KDSS as standard for the Trail Edition. Do you see Jeep Wrangler Rubicon making the anti-roll bar disconnect optional?? No, it is a standard feature because it is an OFF-ROAD feature. Toyota needs to make KDSS standard on the Trail Ed. because that is what it is used for! Get rid of all those knobs...they are confusing me when my checklist is already long enough to go through when hitting the trails! :driving:

I agree completely. On top of that, Toyota makes you buy their NAV with the KDSS, making it over a $4000 option pkg. They should put in a 4:1 transfer case in the Trail Edition instead of trying to handle it through electronics. Jeep also has some decent off-road tires on the Rubicon (I own a JK Unlimited Rubicon). Toyota should have at least but on some BFG AT's on the Trail Edition.

 

[Thai]

I agree completely. On top of that, Toyota makes you buy their NAV with the KDSS, making it over a $4000 option pkg. They should put in a 4:1 transfer case in the Trail Edition instead of trying to handle it through electronics. Jeep also has some decent off-road tires on the Rubicon (I own a JK Unlimited Rubicon). Toyota should have at least but on some BFG AT's on the Trail Edition.

x2. Wow, i did not know that the NAVI/KDSS pkg would cost over $4000!! Yeah, all the FJ special editions have had BFG AT KO as the tire. However, as noted in another thread, this may be a good thing for some people because not everyone likes BFG ATs. On top of that, the off-road pkg in the Hummer h3 has the 4:1 TC.

 

[adkinsadam1]

All you really have to do is shift into 4WD.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

I still haven't studied the 5th Gen...but I think the Crawl Control & Multi-Terrain is garbage.

To me...it's cheating, it's like using a camera & putting it in AUTO settings, I need my manual settings.

With CRAWL & MT...what's the whole fun & challenge.

You don't have to turn them on but it's nice to have those options.

 

[Thai]

You don't have to turn them on but it's nice to have those options.

True, but these are added complication to an otherwise uncomplicated matter. Instead of adding complication (and cost!), why not just make it simple and keep things that matter the most (KDSS for example). RonM, you have always preached about the simplicity of your 4runner with rear locker and how you don't like the electronic stuff on 4th gen, right? What Toyota is adding to the 5th gen Trail Ed. seems almost like a marketing gimmick by overwhelming the "uninformed" consumer with all the electronic do-dads without really improving the capability.

Put it another way...is the 5th gen Trail Edition with all the electronic toys anymore capable off-road than a 2009 4th gen Trail Edition?? I don't think so. And yet, the 4th gen TE is simpler to use off-road...still complex mind you, but a lot easier to navigate the electronic stuff prior to hitting the trails.

 

[rook]

Instead of adding complication (and cost!), why not just make it simple and keep things that matter the most (KDSS for example). RonM, you have always preached about the simplicity of your 4runner with rear locker and how you don't like the electronic stuff on 4th gen, right? What Toyota is adding to the 5th gen Trail Ed. seems almost like a marketing gimmick by overwhelming the "uninformed" consumer with all the electronic do-dads without really improving the capability.

:guitar3: Rock on, Thai.
What the truck needs is better mechanical ability. Instead of spending 2 years developing Crawl Control. Toyota should have improved vehicle dynamics, articulation, flex, travel and all the other things that really matter on the trail.

 

[J.A.]

Thai, I agree on the complexity issue, but feel that enthusiests will prefer to have these features rather than not. Since some are simple programming additions (crawl, multi-terrain) their addition should be fairly low cost so why not have them. I feel the same as the person that said it would be much better to simply have much lower transfer case gearing in 4Lo, but apparently toyota does not feel the same way. As a side note when the e-locker is activated you cannot use multi-terrain select. And while KDSS is expensive, at least its automatic as in no seperate button for activation.

 

[M1911]

While I think crawl control is pointless, I don't think it costs much to add. They've already got an electronic throttle, and electronic control of brakes (hill descent control). It's just a bit more programming and another switch.

 

[4Funnr]

Also, it's not like CRAWL and Terrain-select are offered "as opposed to" A-TRAC and Rear-Diff. They are provided "in addition to".

Besides, an increased number of doodads and switches will entice ignorant folks into liking it more. That may translate into a few sales alone.

 

[Thai]

Also, it's not like CRAWL and Terrain-select are offered "as opposed to" A-TRAC and Rear-Diff. They are provided "in addition to".

Besides, an increased number of doodads and switches will entice ignorant folks into liking it more. That may translate into a few sales alone.

More sales? Maybe, but not for me...i much rather have the simplicity of just having A-TRAC and rear locker...hell, that is enough choices for most people! The problem, for me, with MT system is that it does NOT incorporate the rear locker. The Land Rover's Terrain Response system will manage the traction control AND the rear locker to really provide a complete dynamic system. The MT system in the 4runner Trail Edition is basically playing around with just the traction control, which is nonesense when you have A-TRAC at your disposal...if A-TRAC is too aggressive, then just not use it and lock the rear diff to power thru a mudhole. Basically, i don't see the point of it. Granted, the Land Rover system is far from perfect because you canNOT manually control the rear locker, but the idea behind it is better because it truly incorporates the many propulsion systems into one. Toyota MT system seems to be a half-assed attempt at copying the competition.

CRAWL is just a fancy A-TRAC with the ECU pressing on the gas pedal for you. It just assumes that the driver is too idiotic to push on the gas pedal with common sense.

Like i said, CRAWL and MT systems would be great on a vehicle without A-TRAC option and without rear locker...like the 4runner SR5/LIMITED or Land Cruiser. And i am not even sure the different modes of MT make any sense!

When off-roading, i have always been taught to keep things simple...keep things simple and logical. When you have some beginner pressing all sorts of buttons and turning all sorts of knobs while off-roading, you're just asking for trouble!!

BTW, with a 4:1 LOW range, you won't need no stinking CRAWL...4:1 is super crawl in itself! Fine, i agree...4:1 is too much to ask for (out of Toyota), but damn it, why is KDSS a $4000 option on an off-road specific vehicle???? This reminds me of Ford making a Performance Pkg (that really makes a difference!) for the 2010 Taurus SHO...WTF is SHO for if it comes with wimpy brakes, gears, and suspension?!!

 

[4Funnr]

I guess I kind of like the idea of crawl control. A-TRAC seems to work best in lower throttles and not at WOT. The trouble is, I've seen some videos of 4th gen 4runners in action and when the car is bucking up a hill and bouncing around, or is on a steep incline, it is easy to goose the throttle and get out of the A-TRAC sweet zone and make the wheels slip. Then it starts a bit of a feedback loop with more bouncing, more goosing, more bouncing... etc.

 

[Thai]

I guess I kind of like the idea of crawl control. A-TRAC seems to work best in lower throttles and not at WOT. The trouble is, I've seen some videos of 4th gen 4runners in action and when the car is bucking up a hill and bouncing around, or is on a steep incline, it is easy to goose the throttle and get out of the A-TRAC sweet zone and make the wheels slip. Then it starts a bit of a feedback loop with more bouncing, more goosing, more bouncing... etc.

A-TRAC is different...it is NOT the same as ATRAC in the 4th gen 4runner. (ONLY the 2009 4runner Trail Edition had this form of A-TRAC...the rest of the 4th gen 4runner had the 'normal' ATRAC.) It is a lot more aggressive at clamping down the slipping tire(s). It is ONLY available when you're in 4-LO. Therefore, what you described would not be an issue if the driver has any experience.

 

[4Runner8]

why cant toyota just go ahead and make the Trail edition have a front solid and give the fj the front solid standard????? they probably wont lose any sales... i doubt someone that doesnt care for off roading would not buy one because it had the solid axle if they like the looks of the trail edition they would probably still get it. i have never heard of anyone say "im not buying that suv or truck cause it has a solid front axle" i mean seriously, toyota is doing great competing with jeep but if they really want someone that has never had a jeep or a toyota to go with them for an off roading vehicle they gotta go solid front axle. JMO

 

[Thai]

why cant toyota just go ahead and make the Trail edition have a front solid and give the fj the front solid standard????? they probably wont lose any sales... i doubt someone that doesnt care for off roading would not buy one because it had the solid axle if they like the looks of the trail edition

That would take a whole redesign of the vehicle since the 4runner and Prado overseas do not come with it. This would mean that all the 4runners (SR5, Limited) will also have the solid axle...which means that these 4runners will suck in handling compare to its competitors...along with increase weight and worsen fuel economy.

The current IFS/axle is perfectly fine for 99% of people out there...no need to change.