KDSS issues on a 14 TE, an update, and some hopefully useful information for others

[VoodooTitan]

******UPDATE****** Original post below

So it's been a few days, about 200 miles since I had to drive up to Orange Country for a funeral, and the lean is back. I noticed it tonight after I parked in a parking garage (level surface). I'll post some pictures of before the fix, after the fix, and from tonight. It's pretty annoying and disappointing. As wfo9 stated, the lean does come right back and this is DEFINITELY the KDSS system because a recalibration did temporarily fix it. The Assistant Manager at Toyota did admit that they know so little about the KDSS and it's long term effectiveness, so me bringing it in is helpful for them and hopefully other owners. I do know that i've mentioned the issue every time i brought it in for service, and specifically it's noted on the 35K service, which I brought it in around 34K, so the parts were still under warranty when the issue began. I'm going to schedule to drop it off again so they can pull the springs and struts/shocks to inspect those. The only thing I can surmise is that something is wrong with the positioning of the spring, tension, or how it's sitting which would cause the KDSS to recalibrate it to sit higher in the rear left. I'm just concerned about long term reliability. I don't want to have to deal with really expensive repairs on a system that was never functioning properly in the first place. I'm pretty disappointed at the moment because I love my 4Runner and really wanted to start putting some money into it so I can start going out on adventures with my son (he's getting to the age where he'll appreciate it). I was wondering/hoping that maybe a lift would fix this issue, but based on some other comments it doesn't seem that it will, maybe make it worse, and then if the system does fail I am 100% liable for repairs, and I don't know the overall effect of an aftermarket lift with this system.

I'll keep updating as more info rolls in. Other owners with issues or solutions, or that are in a similar spot, please share or comment.

*****Original Post*****

Hey guys, it's been a while but I wanted to post my story just in case it wasn't common knowledge and maybe it would help others in the future. For about the past year or so I've noticed an issue with my TE leaning to the right pretty harshly sometimes, other times less but still leaning. It was difficult to tell a difference in ride quality or performance as I haven't done any off-roading or anything aside from daily driving since I bought it. I brought it in a few times (I swear it was a few times, once according to Toyota) for this lean. Each time I was told it's within specs and not to worry. I'd posted in here and nothing really came of it, I was told it's ok because it's the typical "toyota lean", and no one had any real experience aside from suggesting a spacer kit. I didn't want to have to go through that tho, I just wanted to system to work as intended. So for months I was nagged by this with no resolution.

Well, I finally had it. I brought it to off-road warehouse since they do free suspension inspections and begged for help. They're not familiar with KDSS or toyotas very much, but they measured each side and inspected it anyway. The results were "something is not right, but we don't know what is wrong". I was 34 1/4 DF, 36 3/4 DR, 36 PF, 34 PR. They also said the CV joints didn't look like they were sitting right (angled opposite of how they should be) and maybe it's a hydraulic or electrical issue and recommended asking Toyota to specifically inspect this.

So I brought it in for the 45K service and insisted they do an inspection and specifically look at the KDSS. FINALLY... here's the results, directly from the service manager (who just so happened to write me up)

Paraphrasing here...
"So we found that the KDSS needs to be recalibrated. It's $121 to recalibrate. The reason is as the system is working it's pumping fluid into the hydraulic and if the system powers off while it's adjusting it won't always reset and additional fluid can be pushed into that hydraulic causing the uneven ride height. Recalibrating should fix the issue but if it doesn't we'll need to bleed the KDSS to fully reset it" (~$320!!!) the other option is there is a faulty component.

The KDSS is considered a routine maintenance/service system. I didn't know this. It's not something that is supposed to function perfectly for the life of the truck. So it would be of benefit for anyone with the system to get it inspected and calibrated on a routine basis (yearly I'd think).

So my understanding is if anyone is having this leaning issue it's because the hydraulics aren't being allowed to reset or re-level. I'm guess that this happens if you park on an uneven surface or something but I don't know why or how this could happen so routinely. What's even more frustrating is, to recalibrate it, they basically plug a computer into the ECU and road test it and make adjustments. Something I feel could be done by the owner.

I'll update this when I go pick up my 4Runner and get a better understanding and explination of what exactly happened and how to prevent it. I just wanted to vent and get word out there since this doesn't seem to be a common thing.

I've also learned systems of a KDSS malfunction or failure are
1. Uneven ride heights in all sides
2. Stiffer handling
3. Excessive vehicle roll
4. KDSS light comes on (not in all cases tho)

Hope this story and info proves useful to other owners and users on here. Also if anyone has any experience or knowledge in this please share it. I'd love to hear your story and how it played out.

Have a safe and fun weekend guys/gals!

 

[Patriot12]

Hey guys, it's been a while but I wanted to post my story just in case it wasn't common knowledge and maybe it would help others in the future. For about the past year or so I've noticed an issue with my TE leaning to the right pretty harshly sometimes, other times less but still leaning. It was difficult to tell a difference in ride quality or performance as I haven't done any off-roading or anything aside from daily driving since I bought it. I brought it in a few times (I swear it was a few times, once according to Toyota) for this lean. Each time I was told it's within specs and not to worry. I'd posted in here and nothing really came of it, I was told it's ok because it's the typical "toyota lean", and no one had any real experience aside from suggesting a spacer kit. I didn't want to have to go through that tho, I just wanted to system to work as intended. So for months I was nagged by this with no resolution.

Well, I finally had it. I brought it to off-road warehouse since they do free suspension inspections and begged for help. They're not familiar with KDSS or toyotas very much, but they measured each side and inspected it anyway. The results were "something is not right, but we don't know what is wrong". I was 34 1/4 DF, 36 3/4 DR, 36 PF, 34 PR. They also said the CV joints didn't look like they were sitting right (angled opposite of how they should be) and maybe it's a hydraulic or electrical issue and recommended asking Toyota to specifically inspect this.

So I brought it in for the 45K service and insisted they do an inspection and specifically look at the KDSS. FINALLY... here's the results, directly from the service manager (who just so happened to write me up)

Paraphrasing here...
"So we found that the KDSS needs to be recalibrated. It's $121 to recalibrate. The reason is as the system is working it's pumping fluid into the hydraulic and if the system powers off while it's adjusting it won't always reset and additional fluid can be pushed into that hydraulic causing the uneven ride height. Recalibrating should fix the issue but if it doesn't we'll need to bleed the KDSS to fully reset it" (~$320!!!) the other option is there is a faulty component.

The KDSS is considered a routine maintenance/service system. I didn't know this. It's not something that is supposed to function perfectly for the life of the truck. So it would be of benefit for anyone with the system to get it inspected and calibrated on a routine basis (yearly I'd think).

So my understanding is if anyone is having this leaning issue it's because the hydraulics aren't being allowed to reset or re-level. I'm guess that this happens if you park on an uneven surface or something but I don't know why or how this could happen so routinely. What's even more frustrating is, to recalibrate it, they basically plug a computer into the ECU and road test it and make adjustments. Something I feel could be done by the owner.

I'll update this when I go pick up my 4Runner and get a better understanding and explination of what exactly happened and how to prevent it. I just wanted to vent and get word out there since this doesn't seem to be a common thing.

I've also learned systems of a KDSS malfunction or failure are
1. Uneven ride heights in all sides
2. Stiffer handling
3. Excessive vehicle roll
4. KDSS light comes on (not in all cases tho)

Hope this story and info proves useful to other owners and users on here. Also if anyone has any experience or knowledge in this please share it. I'd love to hear your story and how it played out.

Have a safe and fun weekend guys/gals!

Mr. Banner,

You should not pay $121 for the dealer to recalibrate your truck. There are numerous threads on how to complete this with instructions found at ORW (see attached). I've done this process two times now and I've found the lean inevitably comes back (once calibrated, the truck looks great, but as soon as I test drove it, the lean came back immediately). I'm still looking for a solution along with [MENTION=120071]mtbtim[/MENTION] and [MENTION=81106]Cytronus[/MENTION] and it looks like you are near San Diego, but if you are anywhere near the Bay Area, I'm sure we can take a look at your set up as well. Based on your measurements, it looks like you are stock height, which is different from my (2013 Trail) and Dave's (2016 Trail) setups because we are both lifted, mine with OMEs/5100s and his with Icons. If there are any members who actually bled their KDSS system (not sure if this is a good idea or not), that would be the next step to figuring out this issue.

I'm sure there is more to come... I share in your frustration...

 

[nb rob]

for what it's worth, before I lifted my trail, I had a reverse angle on my front CV joints too. I don't think it's any cause for your concern specifically.
good luck and keep us posted with your experience.

here's some reading on the bleeding proceedure.
http://www.moranbahweather.com/toyota/repair2/html/frame_rm0000038u7001x.html


the sst that I've seen looks more rectangular

 

[1engineer]

If I were you guys I would check and make sure your OEM springs were correct part numbers. Pretty sure on the KDSS models one spring is slightly longer than the other.

 

[VoodooTitan]

If I were you guys I would check and make sure your OEM springs were correct part numbers. Pretty sure on the KDSS models one spring is slightly longer than the other.

if this is true then it would explain why the rear left looks so much higher from the rest. I'll have to see if I can check it. Would I be able to do this by peeking under the truck or do I need to get it on a lift to check the part number on the springs? I could ask the dealership to do it while the got it up on the lift.

 

[VoodooTitan]

Mr. Banner,

You should not pay $121 for the dealer to recalibrate your truck. There are numerous threads on how to complete this with instructions found at ORW (see attached). I've done this process two times now and I've found the lean inevitably comes back (once calibrated, the truck looks great, but as soon as I test drove it, the lean came back immediately). I'm still looking for a solution along with [MENTION=120071]mtbtim[/MENTION] and [MENTION=81106]Cytronus[/MENTION] and it looks like you are near San Diego, but if you are anywhere near the Bay Area, I'm sure we can take a look at your set up as well. Based on your measurements, it looks like you are stock height, which is different from my (2013 Trail) and Dave's (2016 Trail) setups because we are both lifted, mine with OMEs/5100s and his with Icons. If there are any members who actually bled their KDSS system (not sure if this is a good idea or not), that would be the next step to figuring out this issue.

I'm sure there is more to come... I share in your frustration...

Damn, i already gave them the approval to go ahead and do it. I'll try to get them to comp it or something. It's infuriating that this system works like this... Thanks for the heads up. I might be in the Bay area in the next few months, if I am i'll let you know.

I plan on lifting it, but since this is the KDSS system and not the suspension, will this problem persist even with a lift?

 

[adrtoy]

Both front springs on my 16 TP with KDSS had the same Orange and White paint marks.

 

[wfo9]

Damn, i already gave them the approval to go ahead and do it. I'll try to get them to comp it or something. It's infuriating that this system works like this... Thanks for the heads up. I might be in the Bay area in the next few months, if I am i'll let you know.

I plan on lifting it, but since this is the KDSS system and not the suspension, will this problem persist even with a lift?

I've experienced the same problem with two different KDSS trucks. The calibration would help temporarily, but the lean would come right back.

People here will tell you it is not KDSS causing the lean... But I'm pretty confident it is. If it was not.. the calibration would not help temporarily.

Ultimately... the solution was a full bleed plus a small spacer on the front and rear to counteract the lean. The lift made it much worse on both trucks and the owners were extremely frustrated.

But I try not to talk about KDSS on here because people get really upset with any mention of it in a negative context. I know some people have no issues and once we got the lean issues resolved... it has been working fine.

 

[gundrted+t4r]

Another comment about dealers in general.

If you have brought a vehicle in under warranty and they couldn't find the issue and they find it later, they 'should' cover the repair. If you've noted the issue on previous service, they should work with you. Its also important to make sure the service writer makes a note for every item you bring up. That is your proof to reference later and hopefully get work covered. Just because the tech didn't find the issue doesn't mean it wasn't there.

 

[gm350reratliff]

for what it's worth, before I lifted my trail, I had a reverse angle on my front CV joints too. I don't think it's any cause for your concern specifically.
good luck and keep us posted with your experience.

here's some reading on the bleeding proceedure.
GSIC - Global Service Information Center


the sst that I've seen looks more rectangular

FWIW, both of my non-kdss 4runners also had a negative cv angle when stock. Toyota did us all a favor there because we do not need and diff drop kits when lifting the front.

If I were you guys I would check and make sure your OEM springs were correct part numbers. Pretty sure on the KDSS models one spring is slightly longer than the other.

Not sure about the kdss equipped vehicles but just about every other Toyota truck/suv I've lifted, the driver side front spring is longer/stiffer. The rear springs seem to be the same side to side.

OP- I hope you can get your situation resolved and thanks for sharing it with us. I do know that if the system fails it can be very expensive to fix. Which is one of the reasons I opted to pass on the kdss and I'm still glad mine doesn't have it.

 

[adrtoy]

Any chance this problem can be caused by leveling the vehicle out when lifting? It would seem that if you lifted just the front in which the front piston extended some, that maybe it would cause a reaction to the rear that may not have gotten a proportionate lift.

Random guess here.

 

[wcjeep]

Another comment about dealers in general.

If you have brought a vehicle in under warranty and they couldn't find the issue and they find it later, they 'should' cover the repair. If you've noted the issue on previous service, they should work with you. Its also important to make sure the service writer makes a note for every item you bring up. That is your proof to reference later and hopefully get work covered. Just because the tech didn't find the issue doesn't mean it wasn't there.

I have owned a Jeep product. Always have the service writer take good notes. Get a copy of the notes. Track the total time the dealer has the vehicle every time. I use Google Calendar. Whatever works for you, do that. This is your proof. Having an understanding dealer helps. Not all dealers are created equal. I have paid slightly more for a vehicle in the past for better service department and better dealership owners.

 

[Engineer]

Has any one complaining of to much lean unbolted the sway bar from the LCA to see if it is the cause? Or if you prefer back the shutter valves all the way out (kidding.....)

 

[VoodooTitan]

Updated up top

 

[JSparky]

KDSS lean is pretty well documented here in the States and in Australia as well. Although I don't agree it's right, to the best of my knowledge there is no permanent fix. That said the system does perform amazingly well, lean aside.

Can anyone confirm that installing spring spacers can alleviate the issue?

 

[Brandonium]

There are landcruisers with lifts and KDSS are there not? I remember reading about calibrations to the landcruisers that would alleviate this. It was speculative at the time that installing the lift without all 4 wheels off the ground caused this...but like I said this was speculative. In the thread that documents lifting a KDSS equipped 4Runner it seemed as though lean issues were far and few between or not significant enough to cause any concern. Some of the fixes have been:

1). The recalibration
2). Spring spacers
3). If coilovers a preload adjustment

When I called Fox and OME I was told that spring spacers are only for non-coilover setups.

In all my reading up until this thread I don't think I've ever seen someone say that the true fix is a full system bleed.

It would be nice to know how many get away with almost no lean while others get the shaft.

KDSS lean is pretty well documented here in the States and in Australia as well. Although I don't agree it's right, to the best of my knowledge there is no permanent fix. That said the system does perform amazingly well, lean aside.

Can anyone confirm that installing spring spacers can alleviate the issue?

 

[Ro_or_R0]

I too have the same issue
Just 2 weeks ago I slapped on the Daystar front 2.5" and rear 1.5" lift kit and now my rig leans to the right like yours.

I have yet to and will need to measure all 4 corners of my rig from the frame rails to determine which corner sits lower/higher than the rest.

If the right just sits lower because of the KDSS
I'd think the solution would be to throw a ToyoTec 1/4-1/2" on the front right and double up on OME rear 10mm spacer for the right rear.


Any new updates?

 

[Donovan1]

There are about 834872523-5 topics regarding this on the FJ forums. The infamous FJ lean. I have no idea why Toyota has allowed this to go on for so long, but every FJ is cockeyed. AS the FJ and 4Runner are pretty much the same underneath, there may be more to the lean than just the KDDS. FJ leans to the left though. FJ has two different springs for the front but Toyota is too cheap to make two different in the rear.


Personally I'd like to know why my 4Runner is SO badly nose down. It's like two inches lower in on the nose. Doesn't really help when lifting because you have to lift the nose 2 inches just to get a level starting point.

 

[wcjeep]

I asked about the KDSS when we purchased. Salesperson confirmed any problems with the KDSS is covered under the 3yr/36k warranty.

 

[Donovan1]

I asked about the KDSS when we purchased. Salesperson confirmed any problems with the KDSS is covered under the 3yr/36k warranty.

Did he also say they have some free all weather mats for you and that the 4Runner can fly?