LawnDart's Build Thread
- Thread starter LawnDart
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This is great. Coming from the sports car world, I seem to find myself much more "okay" with adding things to the 4Runner as-needed. This is surprising because when I was building my last Mustang, it was an all-out mod-fest to build a Mustang that could eat up most other cars in the corners and on a twisty track instead of being limited to the stereotypical Mustang straight-line all-the-horsepower, all-the-torque route most people take.
....I drove the Mustang in an autocross once and then sold it. Loved the car, hated the work and maintenance (only time it went to a shop was for tuning, all the other work was done myself) and frustrations it took and got burnt out.
Now I see badass overlanding rigs such as yours and of course the "tinkerer" in me thinks "damn that would be awesome, I should get all that stuff" and then I'm like "ehh, forest service roads and drive-up campsites don't really necessitate all that".
So I definitely still get the cravings for mods, but with the 4Runner, I seem to do a better job staying grounded in reality and functionality because I really don't need to get burnt out on another expensive vehicle.
Great article!
LandCruiser
New member
That thing is a testament to the toughness of the 4Runner, how it manages to hold together after all you put it through is a mystery.
Unless you have a couple and keep swapping them out.
Unless you have a couple and keep swapping them out.
its_not_a_tuba
New member
Great article! I couldn't agree more with every point you've made here. I previously built up an Xterra and through the same mechanisims you mention I found myself with a vehicle that was way overbuilt and way too heavy for my needs. On road handling wasn't terrible, but I didn't like putting my kids in there for long haul freeway camping trips. My 4 Runner build is being taken on with all these lessons in mind. My first mod was to build out the accessory electrical system carefully with quality components and a lot of planning. It was a pain to install switches for components I didn't even own yet, but now most everything from here on out will be plug and play. I was really tempted to go extended travel but in the end I remembered the handling challenges of the Xterra and came to the conclusion I didn't need it, no matter how freaking cool it looks. I remain desperately on the fence about a swing out tire carrier and how many skids I need underneath. The skids on my X to this day are unscathed.
I love your rig and it has served as a great deal of inspiration for the direction of my build. I'm just getting started over here but hopefully I'll be able to keep my urge to unneccesarily modify it in check! Reading this article hardens my resolve!
LawnDart
Senior Member
Thanks guys. I don't rock crawl my rig like guys like [MENTION=89562]bimrunner[/MENTION] or whatnot, but I've done a fair amount of abuse to it, and because I'm THAT guy I've always wanted to keep the vehicle clean and looking like new as a result. But as I said many pages back in my post mortem from Baja, is that the vehicle was just built in a way that didn't lend itself well to what I wanted (and still want) to do with it.
As I said before, often times we look for solutions to problems that aren't really problems. And because of that even if you come up with a really good solution, it may be complicated, and not in fact be a good solution.
For example. I think my Tembo Tusk drop slider was awesome, it meant it dropped a 60lb fridge down to waist level. It was awesome to show off. It was also complicated and heavy. My Alu-Cab tilting slider isn't as fancy, it's also like 1/6th the weight, doesn't rattle, and has 2-3 parts total.
As noted in the article, my roof rack is neat, I like the Gobi a lot. But if it wasn't murder removing the RotoPax mounts I'd get rid of them today. I never carry anything in the water tanks now that I have a trailer with a 25gal tank. Maxtrax could go in the vehicle in a bag when I go out offroading. Lights could go on the rear bumper. That'd save me 150-200lbs I bet.
Same for my top light bar, in Baja it was absolutely useless. Even Baja Designs warned me that I should do more light below the windshield, not a lot of light above it.
I don't want to get sucked into feeling too stupid about design decisions, but being frank about what has worked, and what doesn't work as well is important. Too many people spend money on stuff and can't be honest about what may not work as well as hoped.
Here's a couple of other things I've been mulling over but had to kind of put in the "this doesn't make sense from past experience" pile:
Headlights: One of the things that happened in Baja was we shook the vehicle so violently for so long that both turn signals actually popped out, and were bouncing around inside the housings. One low beam bulb actually exploded (I carry spares). So the idea of fancy headlights, LED retrofits, basically adding complexity to something that isn't designed for HIDs/LEDs is something I'm not eager to mess with. Yes, the headlights suck, but complicating them to achieve MORE light, isn't really something I want to do.
Supercharger: I've struggled with this one a lot. Besides the cost, which isn't great, here's the straight facts. You have to run 91 Octane in it, even Magnuson says not to use octane booster. Even if you could bring in enough Octane booster, and assuming that stuff isn't snake oil, if you go to Baja or even places in eastern oregon, you may only find a gas station with 89 (it may be even less than 89 in Baja). Most of the times we had to refuel in Baja it was buying 5 gallons of gas out of the back of some dude's pickup truck. That's just how it goes.
Posting videos of burn outs isn't my goal. I'm not trying to build a ricer here. For as much shit as I've leveled against the Gen 5, it safely got me down that peninsula while hauling ass with Raptors, and safely back despite every dash light being lit up, a busted ABS system, chewed up air sensor, beat up suspension, etc. To me attacking the reliability of that engine, despite the sometimes disappointing drive train, isn't high on my list.
I hope that helps.
As I said before, often times we look for solutions to problems that aren't really problems. And because of that even if you come up with a really good solution, it may be complicated, and not in fact be a good solution.
For example. I think my Tembo Tusk drop slider was awesome, it meant it dropped a 60lb fridge down to waist level. It was awesome to show off. It was also complicated and heavy. My Alu-Cab tilting slider isn't as fancy, it's also like 1/6th the weight, doesn't rattle, and has 2-3 parts total.
As noted in the article, my roof rack is neat, I like the Gobi a lot. But if it wasn't murder removing the RotoPax mounts I'd get rid of them today. I never carry anything in the water tanks now that I have a trailer with a 25gal tank. Maxtrax could go in the vehicle in a bag when I go out offroading. Lights could go on the rear bumper. That'd save me 150-200lbs I bet.
Same for my top light bar, in Baja it was absolutely useless. Even Baja Designs warned me that I should do more light below the windshield, not a lot of light above it.
I don't want to get sucked into feeling too stupid about design decisions, but being frank about what has worked, and what doesn't work as well is important. Too many people spend money on stuff and can't be honest about what may not work as well as hoped.
Here's a couple of other things I've been mulling over but had to kind of put in the "this doesn't make sense from past experience" pile:
Headlights: One of the things that happened in Baja was we shook the vehicle so violently for so long that both turn signals actually popped out, and were bouncing around inside the housings. One low beam bulb actually exploded (I carry spares). So the idea of fancy headlights, LED retrofits, basically adding complexity to something that isn't designed for HIDs/LEDs is something I'm not eager to mess with. Yes, the headlights suck, but complicating them to achieve MORE light, isn't really something I want to do.
Supercharger: I've struggled with this one a lot. Besides the cost, which isn't great, here's the straight facts. You have to run 91 Octane in it, even Magnuson says not to use octane booster. Even if you could bring in enough Octane booster, and assuming that stuff isn't snake oil, if you go to Baja or even places in eastern oregon, you may only find a gas station with 89 (it may be even less than 89 in Baja). Most of the times we had to refuel in Baja it was buying 5 gallons of gas out of the back of some dude's pickup truck. That's just how it goes.
Posting videos of burn outs isn't my goal. I'm not trying to build a ricer here. For as much shit as I've leveled against the Gen 5, it safely got me down that peninsula while hauling ass with Raptors, and safely back despite every dash light being lit up, a busted ABS system, chewed up air sensor, beat up suspension, etc. To me attacking the reliability of that engine, despite the sometimes disappointing drive train, isn't high on my list.
I hope that helps.
Plumbrunner
New member
Well said [MENTION=124732]LawnDart[/MENTION] !! A lot of guys/people in life cant ever accept the fact that their first decision wasnt the best or right one. They’ll fight tooth and nail to defend that decision. Ultimately it sounds like you need an LS SWAP. Hehehe
Just do it! Has anyone done one in a 5th gen yet that we know of? That would be Baja worthy, gas wouldnt be an issue and frankly it would be more reliable than super charging the current motor.
Just do it! Has anyone done one in a 5th gen yet that we know of? That would be Baja worthy, gas wouldnt be an issue and frankly it would be more reliable than super charging the current motor.
LawnDart
Senior Member
No one has done it yet. I’ve actually had a rough blueprint mapped out for an LS swap mapped out for a few months. It would be awesome and piss the purists off.
honda250xtitan
New member
Sweet feedback...alot of times people can't/won't be realistic about their mods and how they perform because they spent so much money on them. I've been there with my titan.
Jetboy
New member
Wouldn't a GX 4.6 swap make a lot more sense in terms of benefit for your effort? Mainly because it should be as close to a bolt in swap as you can do in a 5th gen. And you'd get a 6 speed as a nice benefit. It would be a ways off in power of course from an LS, but the electronics should make it much easier to do overall if you want to keep most of the integration with the rest of the vehicle.
It seems like a LC200 is a cheaper option in the end. And then you get all the bigger heavier drive train parts too. And it's a well proven Baja race truck platform with of thousands of SCORE race miles. More than any other current production vehicle I'm aware of.
The LS would be great. But it's a monster undertaking. And it'll never be as reliable as a factory vehicle. Swaps are always buggy no matter how clean they are.
It seems like a LC200 is a cheaper option in the end. And then you get all the bigger heavier drive train parts too. And it's a well proven Baja race truck platform with of thousands of SCORE race miles. More than any other current production vehicle I'm aware of.
The LS would be great. But it's a monster undertaking. And it'll never be as reliable as a factory vehicle. Swaps are always buggy no matter how clean they are.
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007Tacoma
New member
Honest answers like these (This works. That doesn't.) are why I follow your threads and IG posts. Thanks, Isaac!
LawnDart
Senior Member
As I keep prefacing, and I have to be extra clear, is that "these things work or don't work for *ME*"
Operative qualifier is for "ME"
Too many people make declarative statements that a piece of gear doesn't work, and everyone takes it as gospel. I've said things like that, and I do my best NOT to do so anymore.
For someone else out there a supercharger is a great upgrade, for me, it's too limiting. I'm also kind of honest and opinionated to a fault. So for those companies I stick with, it means I really like them/their product.
Jetboy
New member
Just a few passing thoughts/questions.
Do you think the short wheelbase holds you back in the high speed stuff? It seems from my limited experience that similarly setup tacomas seem to be better at higher speeds in both the whoops and just regular washboard roads - I spend a lot of time on those. The rear end is so easy to get unsettled. This was exactly the same in my last 4runner too. In particular the rear end is usually a lot more settled in the tacoma - and also more predictable in high speed drifting. I'm curious how you feel like the rear suspension you've got has improved as compared to what it was like in a more stock form. Do you feel like it's a limitation?
I've never been able to push my 4runner anywhere close to what you're doing in yours. I'd be on my lid before you probably need to put your coffee down. But I've also found that it is way off the pace of how hard I can drive a comparable Tacoma with essentially similar suspension in the front and comparable rear parts but for a leaf sprung setup. I don't know how to judge if it's more of an issue with the rear link design that causes it or the spring style. My suspicion is that it has a lot to do with the rear spring placement so far inboard and the short upper control arms. It's just inherently not well stabilized compared to moving springs further outboard. After having mine for a few years I think KDSS is really a bandaid for this problem - that comes with its own whole set of issues like stiff ride and limited suspension travel. Mostly just musings since you're really the only one other than the old Toyota team back in 2010 that's really pushed the limit of the platform in the deserts for going fast. - and they rolled once during the race that wasn't well published. But I kinda think moving the springs outboard might actually make a bit difference in overall handling. Possibly even using leaf springs because of physical fitment limitations. A spring under design that wouldn't be great in the rocks might be really fantastic in the desert. Going to leafs seems backwards, but maybe for certain uses it would be a viable alternative? Probably would eliminate the need for a sway bar and maybe even allow for lower compression dampening for a more compliant ride without sacrificing stability.
It's easy to have all the answer for someone else's vehicle right? lol.
I always enjoy reading your articles about the 4runner. Thanks for sharing them.
Do you think the short wheelbase holds you back in the high speed stuff? It seems from my limited experience that similarly setup tacomas seem to be better at higher speeds in both the whoops and just regular washboard roads - I spend a lot of time on those. The rear end is so easy to get unsettled. This was exactly the same in my last 4runner too. In particular the rear end is usually a lot more settled in the tacoma - and also more predictable in high speed drifting. I'm curious how you feel like the rear suspension you've got has improved as compared to what it was like in a more stock form. Do you feel like it's a limitation?
I've never been able to push my 4runner anywhere close to what you're doing in yours. I'd be on my lid before you probably need to put your coffee down. But I've also found that it is way off the pace of how hard I can drive a comparable Tacoma with essentially similar suspension in the front and comparable rear parts but for a leaf sprung setup. I don't know how to judge if it's more of an issue with the rear link design that causes it or the spring style. My suspicion is that it has a lot to do with the rear spring placement so far inboard and the short upper control arms. It's just inherently not well stabilized compared to moving springs further outboard. After having mine for a few years I think KDSS is really a bandaid for this problem - that comes with its own whole set of issues like stiff ride and limited suspension travel. Mostly just musings since you're really the only one other than the old Toyota team back in 2010 that's really pushed the limit of the platform in the deserts for going fast. - and they rolled once during the race that wasn't well published. But I kinda think moving the springs outboard might actually make a bit difference in overall handling. Possibly even using leaf springs because of physical fitment limitations. A spring under design that wouldn't be great in the rocks might be really fantastic in the desert. Going to leafs seems backwards, but maybe for certain uses it would be a viable alternative? Probably would eliminate the need for a sway bar and maybe even allow for lower compression dampening for a more compliant ride without sacrificing stability.
It's easy to have all the answer for someone else's vehicle right? lol.
I always enjoy reading your articles about the 4runner. Thanks for sharing them.
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LawnDart
Senior Member
Well here's the thing, the 4Runner kind of fares better than the Tacoma at higher speed because there's more weight in the back. So the rear end feels really planted in higher speed stuff. But it comes at the price of weight.
I never felt like we had an issue with the back end of the 4Runner. The fastest I got the 4Runner up to, and it didn't really make the show (you can see segments of the location just not us on it) is the dry lake bed where we had the 4Runner up to and above 100mph. And it felt very planted even when we caught air.
I don't even think I would consider Hydro Bumps because we never once smacked the rear end on anything in Baja.
It's all a give and a take. I've actually talked with people who've taken prerunners out into the mountains, and they said they handled like shit. I know there's a quest to kind of make a vehicle that does everything well, and I just think you're chasing your tail. A pre-runner is gonna blast past a rig meant for trails in open country, but that same rig is going to be slow up mountain passes.
Would a longer wheel base help? Yes, add another 15-20" and it'd be ideal. As much as I want a Super Crew Gen 2 Raptor, the ideal wheel base is the Super Cab. Even the Raptor guys will tell you that's a better balance for Baja. But it means giving up a more spacious setup for 99 percent of the rest of the year. Give and take.
The one thing that's kind of interesting, is that the leaf springs have a weird issue off road on washboards, because of how leaf springs transmit an impact from one side to the other side of the suspension. It was pointed out to me, and I noticed it during the trip, that following a raptor, on washboards you'd see the back ends hop, side to side on leaf sprung vehicles. As such as they rolled over washboards they'd make oscillating washboards as a result. Meaning instead of in a nice row you'd have alternating peaks and troughs. Which would make for a rougher ride for those behind a leaf sprung vehicle. Whereas vehicles behind us would notice that we'd actually kind of reset those new alternating washboards back to the way they were.
The important part is that having the washboards all in line is important because the faster you go the more easily you skip over those. But when they alternate it makes the ride like a paint mixer.
I guess rambling aside, the point is you can either tailor the vehicle to do really well in ONE type of terrain, but at the loss of doing pretty damn good in a variety of terrains, or you just kind of realize the vehicle is what it is.
As I said before, the weight and complexity of my vehicle is what bit me. And I think if I had to do it again (this year I'm co-driving a raptor, but next year the 4Runner *MAY* go back), it would go sans a roof rack, no swing arms, no cargo system, no winch, no fuel tank skid, lighter tires/rims.
I never felt like we had an issue with the back end of the 4Runner. The fastest I got the 4Runner up to, and it didn't really make the show (you can see segments of the location just not us on it) is the dry lake bed where we had the 4Runner up to and above 100mph. And it felt very planted even when we caught air.
I don't even think I would consider Hydro Bumps because we never once smacked the rear end on anything in Baja.
It's all a give and a take. I've actually talked with people who've taken prerunners out into the mountains, and they said they handled like shit. I know there's a quest to kind of make a vehicle that does everything well, and I just think you're chasing your tail. A pre-runner is gonna blast past a rig meant for trails in open country, but that same rig is going to be slow up mountain passes.
Would a longer wheel base help? Yes, add another 15-20" and it'd be ideal. As much as I want a Super Crew Gen 2 Raptor, the ideal wheel base is the Super Cab. Even the Raptor guys will tell you that's a better balance for Baja. But it means giving up a more spacious setup for 99 percent of the rest of the year. Give and take.
The one thing that's kind of interesting, is that the leaf springs have a weird issue off road on washboards, because of how leaf springs transmit an impact from one side to the other side of the suspension. It was pointed out to me, and I noticed it during the trip, that following a raptor, on washboards you'd see the back ends hop, side to side on leaf sprung vehicles. As such as they rolled over washboards they'd make oscillating washboards as a result. Meaning instead of in a nice row you'd have alternating peaks and troughs. Which would make for a rougher ride for those behind a leaf sprung vehicle. Whereas vehicles behind us would notice that we'd actually kind of reset those new alternating washboards back to the way they were.
The important part is that having the washboards all in line is important because the faster you go the more easily you skip over those. But when they alternate it makes the ride like a paint mixer.
I guess rambling aside, the point is you can either tailor the vehicle to do really well in ONE type of terrain, but at the loss of doing pretty damn good in a variety of terrains, or you just kind of realize the vehicle is what it is.
As I said before, the weight and complexity of my vehicle is what bit me. And I think if I had to do it again (this year I'm co-driving a raptor, but next year the 4Runner *MAY* go back), it would go sans a roof rack, no swing arms, no cargo system, no winch, no fuel tank skid, lighter tires/rims.
EffayBravo
New member
Great article. It seems your trip through Baja has really influenced/altered your philosophy regarding your build. I've always cringed at the "bolt on anything and everything" mentality that a lot of people in the community have adopted over the past couple years.
Might be a silly question but are you planning on doing more extensive and commanding trips like the Baja trip (maybe a little slower ha) and maybe less of the typical NA trails/backroad camping type of stuff, or is it more about striking a good balance for the both?
EDIT***
You pretty much answered this question a few posts up, my bad ha.
Might be a silly question but are you planning on doing more extensive and commanding trips like the Baja trip (maybe a little slower ha) and maybe less of the typical NA trails/backroad camping type of stuff, or is it more about striking a good balance for the both?
EDIT***
You pretty much answered this question a few posts up, my bad ha.
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LawnDart
Senior Member
I'm going back to Baja the week after I get my Pelfreybilt rear bumper, just to hang, do some easy trails, and drink beer.
I'll be doing Trail of Missions, if all goes well, but that's really a higher speed run, since we're not camping, and have hotels at the end of each leg of the trip. Again, IF I was camping, my pace would be a lot slower. Even the Raptor guys will tell you that Trail of Missions allows you to go fast because you have that support system in place in case something breaks. But when you're on your own you go a LOT slower and take a lot less chances.
007Tacoma
New member
Sorry... I kinda thought that was understood. :shrug:
I tend to take everything with a grain of salt... and the same goes for everything I say. You can only take me as seriously as a satirical cartoon (sarcasm and humor with a hint of sad truth).
Example: SUPERCHARGER... I would love more power, but is it worth the money, headache, or possibility of issues with fuel? Not for me. I rather not complicate my reliability as I demand reliability from my 4Runner.
...that being said, I would love to drop a D4-D 1KD-FTV Diesel Engine in my 4Runner (a la carte: DieselToys.com). So, basically, I'm a liar.
:behindsofa:
LawnDart
Senior Member
I detest the Toyota diesel, especially for what Diesel Toys wants for it. It's pretty gutless, and I'd rather have the Cummins, if you could legally install one in the 4Runner. Plus parts availability is stupid simple.
As for the supercharger, whatever. I'm sure it'd be fun, but not for like 7.5K with install, and not with the huge caveats of wear/tear and the big one...fuel restrictions.
It absolutely blows my mind when "overlanders" say that "oh miles per gallon isn't a big deal." Holy shit, I guess if the majority of your travels are just to and from your local campsite or to the next Overland Expo to park on cement!
MFW when I hear that:
As for the supercharger, whatever. I'm sure it'd be fun, but not for like 7.5K with install, and not with the huge caveats of wear/tear and the big one...fuel restrictions.
It absolutely blows my mind when "overlanders" say that "oh miles per gallon isn't a big deal." Holy shit, I guess if the majority of your travels are just to and from your local campsite or to the next Overland Expo to park on cement!
MFW when I hear that:
YetiX
New member
It's especially funny when they say that and then you see two 5 Gal. Jerry Cans and two Rotopax attached to their rigs. :lmao:
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