leaking rear axle seals: replace housing?

[APhelps]

couple of ideas...one: MTBTM is correct on how to set this up...the dr.coffee method I beleive
two: the shop that is doing the work and if they are a specialty Japanese shop they will appreciate learning how to correctly set up a 4 runner for the future...less future call backs for them
three: 800 seems expensive...is that labor and parts ? If you need a new axel housing...great time to convert to a locker rear end

Can we please stop saying the correct way to install retainers is the Dr Coffee method? The only correct way to installing seals and getting them not to leak is making sure the seal is riding properly on the retainer. Flipping the retainer or not flipping the retainer doesn't matter.

The Dr Coffee method has merit in that you gain some clearance to work with and it does seem on most 4runners that 5mm of polished axle shaft seems to be where the seal will be riding on the retainer correctly when it is flipped.

I think its important to point this out since a lot of people think flipping the retainer, having 5mm of polished axle shaft, or etc. just solves the problem. Tim points this out well in his video but it does seem time to time that people just gloss this over.

 

[3bears]

Can we please stop saying the correct way to install retainers is the Dr Coffee method? The only correct way to installing seals and getting them not to leak is making sure the seal is riding properly on the retainer. Flipping the retainer or not flipping the retainer doesn't matter.

The Dr Coffee method has merit in that you gain some clearance to work with and it does seem on most 4runners that 5mm of polished axle shaft seems to be where the seal will be riding on the retainer correctly when it is flipped.

I think its important to point this out since a lot of people think flipping the retainer, having 5mm of polished axle shaft, or etc. just solves the problem. Tim points this out well in his video but it does seem time to time that people just gloss this over.

Good point I agree that if the retainer depth is set to accommodate the new seal design, it would not have to be flipped. So maybe instead of me saysing the "correct method" or the dr coffee method I should have said."a method" thus implying that there can be choices in doing this

 

[mtbtim]

Can we please stop saying the correct way to install retainers is the Dr Coffee method? The only correct way to installing seals and getting them not to leak is making sure the seal is riding properly on the retainer. Flipping the retainer or not flipping the retainer doesn't matter.

The Dr Coffee method has merit in that you gain some clearance to work with and it does seem on most 4runners that 5mm of polished axle shaft seems to be where the seal will be riding on the retainer correctly when it is flipped.

I think its important to point this out since a lot of people think flipping the retainer, having 5mm of polished axle shaft, or etc. just solves the problem. Tim points this out well in his video but it does seem time to time that people just gloss this over.

Guys have just adjusted the inner retainer in the normal orientation (bevel facing the seal) a little more inboard and got a good mating with the axle seal but there's not much room for error. If they get it bit too far inboard, they'll be grinding the retainer into the axle housing which is no bueno. So, instead of worrying about grinding the inner retainer into the axle housing, I just chose to follow the Dr. Coffee method and it's worked out for about 15 sets of axles so far.

I'd have to say I'm burnt out doing this job but I know there will be more occasions I'll perform it because I'll meet somebody I like that needs help with this and then I'll be working my Harbor Freight press again.

 

[schwipt]

You could always take the ABS sensor off to verify a leak?

3rd Gen Rear ABS Gear (leaking real axle seal) : 4Runner

If you don't want to do the job yourself - I would make sure who ever is doing it gives you pictures / videos of their work. Give them an explicit list of exactly what you want - Otherwise its all unknown/unseen and in the back of your head.

Tell them you want a picture after removing the shaft, inside of the housing, sharpie test (which I like better than the grease test), etc.. watch all of timmy's videos on the job so you know what they should be doing. I think he has 3 or so covering it.

BTW Thanks a bunch for the videos - Did the job myself a few months back using the videos. **If anyone needs the tool in the NJ/MD/PA area let me know - I sold the press but still have the bearing/seal puller tool

Here are a few random pics from when I did the job, didn't take many tho. rear seals - Album on Imgur

 

[Kanoe]

Guys have just adjusted the inner retainer in the normal orientation (bevel facing the seal) a little more inboard and got a good mating with the axle seal but there's not much room for error. If they get it bit too far inboard, they'll be grinding the retainer into the axle housing which is no bueno. So, instead of worrying about grinding the inner retainer into the axle housing, I just chose to follow the Dr. Coffee method and it's worked out for about 15 sets of axles so far.

Tim's right about how slim the margins are on this placement. 1 to 2 mm is about the extent of it. I spent a lot of time with a caliper measuring things while doing mine. I was only comfortable moving the retainer inward by 1mm, that's it. Doing the Dr Coffee flip buys you another 1-2 mm of mating surface.

Based on my sharpie tests and measurements I am fairly confident that things would be very marginal at best without doing the flip. But we've been through this before haven't we?

 

[APhelps]

Guys have just adjusted the inner retainer in the normal orientation (bevel facing the seal) a little more inboard and got a good mating with the axle seal but there's not much room for error. If they get it bit too far inboard, they'll be grinding the retainer into the axle housing which is no bueno. So, instead of worrying about grinding the inner retainer into the axle housing, I just chose to follow the Dr. Coffee method and it's worked out for about 15 sets of axles so far.

I'd have to say I'm burnt out doing this job but I know there will be more occasions I'll perform it because I'll meet somebody I like that needs help with this and then I'll be working my Harbor Freight press again.

In the end though one should be performing the grease/sharpie test and determining where the retainer is riding. I just think its good practice on this forum to make sure people understand that. I've seen a couple of threads on this forum in which people even reference your videos and still do the installs wrong. :doh:

 

[mtbtim]

In the end though one should be performing the grease/sharpie test and determining where the retainer is riding. I just think its good practice on this forum to make sure people understand that. I've seen a couple of threads on this forum in which people even reference your videos and still do the installs wrong. :doh:

Good point. Regardless of how you position the inner retainer on the axle, you need to verify a good mating of the axle seal with the inner retainer before bolting everything back up.

 

[Mark_BC]

I have 3 x 3rd gens, a 97, 98 and 2000. I got two more drum to drum axles to swap out a rusty one and to put an e-locker on the other. They are in the range of 200-300,000 miles. None show any evidence of leaking. I guess my time will soon come? I use the 2000 4runner mostly now, and I ordered the parts for an axle seal job. Should I just do it to get it out of the way for peace of mind? Hoping for a Yukon trip this summer. Maybe I'll just bring the parts with me in case. Hey, if I'm up that way and it blows out, maybe Kanoe can help me do it!!! For a fee of course...

 

[mtbtim]

I have 3 x 3rd gens, a 97, 98 and 2000. I got two more drum to drum axles to swap out a rusty one and to put an e-locker on the other. They are in the range of 200-300,000 miles. None show any evidence of leaking. I guess my time will soon come? I use the 2000 4runner mostly now, and I ordered the parts for an axle seal job. Should I just do it to get it out of the way for peace of mind? Hoping for a Yukon trip this summer. Maybe I'll just bring the parts with me in case. Hey, if I'm up that way and it blows out, maybe Kanoe can help me do it!!! For a fee of course...

With the miles you have, I guarantee you're seals are leaking but you just haven't seen the evidence yet, with a splay of gear oil on inside of one or your rear tires or you noticed gear oil has gotten into your brakes. But, it's easy to verify. Pull your ABS sensors, turn the axles while looking into the ABS sensor port. If you see gear oil lapping onto the ABS tone ring, that means gear oil is getting past the seal and it's also contaminating the bearing slowly washing the grease out.

 

[Mark_BC]

I checked two of them and it looks like there's a little bit of wetness on the ABS gear but not totally dripping, meaning the globs of grease on the ring go round and round and don't get washed off which you would expect if it was bathing in an oil leak. It's bloody hard to pull those sensors out when rusty without wrecking the plastic. I'll double check the 2000 and if it's dry I should be good for a big trip this summer. If wet I'll plan to get the job done. I have the 20 ton press, just haven't put it together yet. I have a million things on my plate right now. I'm like a kid with eyes bigger than his stomach. So many neat projects I start but nowhere near enough time to do them.

 

[3bears]

I have 3 x 3rd gens, a 97, 98 and 2000. I got two more drum to drum axles to swap out a rusty one and to put an e-locker on the other. They are in the range of 200-300,000 miles. None show any evidence of leaking. I guess my time will soon come? I use the 2000 4runner mostly now, and I ordered the parts for an axle seal job. Should I just do it to get it out of the way for peace of mind? Hoping for a Yukon trip this summer. Maybe I'll just bring the parts with me in case. Hey, if I'm up that way and it blows out, maybe Kanoe can help me do it!!! For a fee of course...

well..i did my preventative...230k and moving from oregon to fairbanks alaska and fully loaded...last thing I wanted was a blown axel seal or bearing, finding someone on the road to do the work and all the inconvenience. It also allowed me to take my time, clean things really well, and I installed new wheel cylinders and super cleaned all brake parts.
plus I was going to be leaving tons of my tools, press etc at my son in oregon

 

[beklemmung]

couple of ideas.. I doubt you have a bad housing
.one: MTBTM is correct on how to set this up...and it gives you more area to get the seal to hit correct...however some people think this is not needed
two: the shop that is doing the work and if they are a specialty Japanese shop they will appreciate learning how to correctly set up a 4 runner for the future...less future call backs for them
three: 800 seems expensive...is that labor and parts ? If you need a new axel housing...great time to convert to a locker rear end . In your area of the usa and all the people on the forums that live in that area you should be able to find a drum to drum elocker for less than that , even installed, and then have them switch in your newly pressed axels with bearings. If you were in my area Id help you out. I bet you could find dome 4runner friend to help you out. swapping in a drum to drum would be less that 2 hours ( well for me with air tools and jacks etc) , add another 2-3 for swaping in the "new axels" and installing new seals...the longest part would be doing the wiring. I made up my own harness, did not use factory switch...did it in what they call the gray wire mod....that took me longer than swapping out the rear ends. Now I think you can buy the non factory style harness pre mad

good luck

Thanks for the offer, sometimes I wish I was up in central Alaska and not here in southern CA. The forum has been pretty unanimous that the shop's recommendation to consider replacing the entire rear end without presenting me with any evidence of why it's necessary makes no sense. It looks like a naked play to generate more work/$ which I guess shouldn't surprise me.

Yes, the extra $800 to replace the entire rear end was for labor and parts. I bought the seals, bearings, and brake shoes from McGeorge Toyota in Richmond VA. The shop is charging me $460 in labor to replace the bearings and seals on both sides, put on new brake shoes, and to flush/replace the brake fluid and diff oil. I got quotes from 5 different places and this was the best one for a place that did the press work in-house. The good reviews and the fact that it specializes in Japanese vehicles made it seem like a clear winner... hoping it proves to be a good choice despite the attempt to upsell me.

 

[APhelps]

Thanks for the offer, sometimes I wish I was up in central Alaska and not here in southern CA. The forum has been pretty unanimous that the shop's recommendation to consider replacing the entire rear end without presenting me with any evidence of why it's necessary makes no sense. It looks like a naked play to generate more work/$ which I guess shouldn't surprise me.

Yes, the extra $800 to replace the entire rear end was for labor and parts. I bought the seals, bearings, and brake shoes from McGeorge Toyota in Richmond VA. The shop is charging me $460 in labor to replace the bearings and seals on both sides, put on new brake shoes, and to flush/replace the brake fluid and diff oil. I got quotes from 5 different places and this was the best one for a place that did the press work in-house. The good reviews and the fact that it specializes in Japanese vehicles made it seem like a clear winner... hoping it proves to be a good choice despite the attempt to upsell me.

$800 dollars for parts and labor seem reasonable. I've done the job a few times since I ended up blowing my seals the first go around due to my differential breather being clogged.

I think the rear axle seals is one of the easier jobs to do on the 4runner but its kind of a pain since you have to deal with brake fluid and diff fluid.

Having the tool that Tim references in his videos or one like that tool is key to doing the job.

 

[APhelps]

I checked two of them and it looks like there's a little bit of wetness on the ABS gear but not totally dripping, meaning the globs of grease on the ring go round and round and don't get washed off which you would expect if it was bathing in an oil leak. It's bloody hard to pull those sensors out when rusty without wrecking the plastic. I'll double check the 2000 and if it's dry I should be good for a big trip this summer. If wet I'll plan to get the job done. I have the 20 ton press, just haven't put it together yet. I have a million things on my plate right now. I'm like a kid with eyes bigger than his stomach. So many neat projects I start but nowhere near enough time to do them.

If they are wet, they are leaking by.

Gear oil is thick enough the ABS sensors are going to stay wet even if you don't lap up the gear oil by rotating the tires.

You can probably go for some distance but you should consider doing a replacement at some point. I think at this point you can pretty much guarantee that every 4runner out there needs some head work done, rear axle seals, a new suspension, vacuum lines, new radiator, and etc.

I'm of the opinion that after a vehicle is 20 years old you can get better value buying one with really high miles and doing maintenance work than one with 250,000 miles unless you have paperwork of maintenance/parts.

 

[beklemmung]

$800 dollars for parts and labor seem reasonable. I've done the job a few times since I ended up blowing my seals the first go around due to my differential breather being clogged.

I think the rear axle seals is one of the easier jobs to do on the 4runner but its kind of a pain since you have to deal with brake fluid and diff fluid.

Having the tool that Tim references in his videos or one like that tool is key to doing the job.

That $800 for parts and labor was to replace what the shop alternated calling "the housing" and "the rear end" and "the assembly." I would have still had to pay another ~$450 in labor on top of that for them to put in my new bearings and seals and to install the new brake shoes and drums.

I got my truck back, the only thing I can say for sure right now is that the retainer isn't grinding against the axle housing. It drives fine and no new/strange noises. I didn't witness them doing a grease/sharpie test on either side, but I asked the owner/manager whether they checked and he said his tech checked both sides and that the seal is riding close to the middle of the retainer. I kind of wish I had demanded to watch them test at least one side, though they finished it very late in the day, about an hour after they technically closed.

My receipt states "Customer was offered option on replacing assembly and servicing new assembly to prevent leaks due to worn seating. Customer declined." I don't know why they used "assembly" instead of "axle housing", and based on what everyone here has said, "worn seating" sounds like nonsense.

 

[St Runner]

I had this problem when I first did my seals on my 97. The housing was gouged on the inner seal when work was done before I owned it. The second time around I figured it out and sealed the outer edge of the seal when I replaced it again. No problem since then. You can do this yourself with just a new seal and a couple hours of work if that

 

[Kanoe]

Hoping for a Yukon trip this summer. Maybe I'll just bring the parts with me in case. Hey, if I'm up that way and it blows out, maybe Kanoe can help me do it!!! For a fee of course...

I would be glad to help out, but I am in no way qualified to collect a fee for any services. I did it once, and not really by choice. Couldn't find anyone who wanted to touch it, and I am particular about who I let touch it. It has held up so far 30,000+ km but it was very much a backyard job including making the tools due to short notice.

Have you been up this way before? You'll love it. Get in touch if you want any info or to grab a coffee or a meal. I hope you get to do the trip if covid lets up in time.

 

[beklemmung]

I had this problem when I first did my seals on my 97. The housing was gouged on the inner seal when work was done before I owned it. The second time around I figured it out and sealed the outer edge of the seal when I replaced it again. No problem since then. You can do this yourself with just a new seal and a couple hours of work if that

I'm still not sure I had/have a "problem." A gouged housing doesn't sound the same as a worn seating to me. And when I spoke with the shop on the phone on two occasions they never mentioned that they saw any evidence of damage or wear to the housing, only that they thought I should consider spending an extra $800 because they'd seen problems in the past and it could be invisibly "warped."

 

[Kanoe]

I'm still not sure I had/have a "problem." A gouged housing doesn't sound the same as a worn seating to me. And when I spoke with the shop on the phone on two occasions they never mentioned that they saw any evidence of damage or wear to the housing, only that they thought I should consider spending an extra $800 because they'd seen problems in the past and it could be invisibly "warped."

I suspect your job was just done poorly in the past by people who were not informed. You've read the theory behind this and passed it on. If the shop did things properly you should be good to go.

Pull those ABS sensors soon to make sure it is all good, don't want to ruin your new bearings and brakes.