Less Power at Higher Altitude

Enzo4370

New member
Hey guys I have a somewhat mechanical/engine question. I Have only put 4k miles on my runner since I got it and I have been doing 3k of that driving at sea level. Well I just put a thousand miles on my car on a road trip from San Diego up to Denver CO. While driving through Utah and CO I feel like my car was struggling with power. Really had to gas it more then usual (I think). I understand that there is less air at higher altitudes so your fuel air ratio (stoichiometric ratio) is lessened. So I understand that you get less power. But why do I have to push more on accelerator? Pumping more fuel into engine will only waste more fuel. I really need more oxygen.

Hit me with some knowledge. Maybe it's all in my mind and the road was always a slow climb. But appreciate to read your take.
 
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More gas pedal equals more air.
It's no longer a gas pedal. It's a butterfly valve that controls air intake not fuel. Fuel intake is controlled by the PCM via injectors.
 
I understand that there is less air at higher altitudes so your fuel air ratio (stoichiometric ratio) is lessened. So I understand that you get less power.
Correct except stoich is unchanged. Total mass pumped through the engine (and burned for POWER) is changed.

But why do I have to push more on accelerator?

Ummmm you've already got it.

Throttle goes from 0 -100%
100% throttle is less total power at altitude as you state. If you demand 200 hp at sea level and that = 65 % throttle, and then you demand the same 200 hp at altitude then it will require more throttle. This is dependent upon vehicle aero drag which is lessened at altitude and I'm sure someone could do the math for us.
 
The engine is controlled by the computer, not your foot.
Your foot electronically controls a valve in the intake system, aka throttle. So your foot is really giving the engine more or less air dependent upon the position of your foot.

The computer measures the amount of air entering the engine, and dispenses the proper amount of fuel for that amount of air. Hence the "gas" pedal on the floor opens the throttle, the computer adds more fuel, the extra fuel provides more power, engine rpms increase along with power output, resulting in acceleration and more speed.

Now air changes depending on a number of factors: altitude, temperature, pressure, and humidity. Change any of them and it changes how densely packed the air molecules are for a given volume of air. Now when I say volume of air, I'm talking about the amount of air in a given space like the intake manifold of your truck, or a balloon.

Take the balloon as an example, if you fill it at sea level and then drive 5000ft up a mountain (roughly Denver), the balloon will get bigger and maybe burst. Why? Because the pressure around the balloon is less the higher you go. The pressure in the balloon will try to equalize with the pressure outside of the balloon. Less pressure means the molecules of air are spaced further apart, taking up more volume. Hence the balloon will get bigger, possibly burst. If you fill the balloon in Denver and go down to the beach, the balloon would be limp and deflated at the beach because the molecules have gotten closer together.

That covers altitude, but it's not just that easy.
Warmer temperatures cause the molecules to expand as well, and cold temperatures to contract.
Ever think the H & L on the weather maps? Those are areas of high and low pressure. The higher the pressure, the closer the molecules, the smaller the balloon. The opposite applies for low, further spaced molecules, and larger balloon.

Humidity is a funny one. Think about how much air can fit into that balloon, and displace some of that with water vapor (steam). Because you've added vaporized water, there is now less air. But humidity inside the balloon doesn't change when the balloon travels. If you were to fill two different balloons with the exact same number of molecules of air on days with different humidity, the balloon filled on the higher humidity day would be bigger than the lower humidity day.

How does this apply to your "gas" pedal? You went up more than 5000ft in altitude, meaning less atmospheric pressure and less air for a given throttle setting. Less air = less fuel = less power.
Keep in mind when you go up in altitude you usually go down in temperature, so you regain some power. Although this doesn't help you if you leave the coast in the cooler morning and head up the mountain as temperatures rise as well.
Typically air at altitude is drier (less humid) than air at sea level, again a gain. But neither of these can regain the loss in pressure from altitude. Hence you will have to depress your "gas" pedal more in order to feed the engine the same amount of air for a lower throttle setting you typically use at a lower altitude.

How can you combat this? Simple, make the air more dense!
Turbo/Super-chargers use spinning blades to force more air into the intake manifold, increasing pressure and density.
Ram air scoops gather air at speed instead of from a sheltered location, increasing pressure and density. Think about sticking your hand out the window of a stopped car, no force pushing it back. Put your hand out again at 50mph, it gets pushed back. Most ram air scoops are also cold air intakes.
Cold air intakes gather air from outside of the hot engine bay, using the cooler more dense air. Because you can gather cold air from inside of your fender and out of the slipstream of the vehicle, not all cold air intakes are ram air scoops. Now don't you wish the Trail Edition hood scoops were functional, providing a cold ram air intake?!

I didn't mention much about speed of the air going through the manifold, but I'm going to touch on it. Basically the slower the air moving into the manifold, the less the pressure. So things like air filters, bends and corrugation in the tubing can slow down the air flow, decreasing pressure. In no way to I advocate running without an air filter, but this is why K&N (and similar) have better performance and power than those cheap FRAM things in Walmart. The K&N have a higher flow rate, meaning more air through the filter in a given amount of time.

I hope this helps.
 
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The only solution to your problem is forced induction, which at the moment will require the sale of your truck
 
So things like air filters, bends and corrugation in the tubing can slow down the air flow, decreasing pressure. In no way to I advocate running without an air filter, but this is why K&N (and similar) have better performance and power than those cheap FRAM things in Walmart. The K&N have a higher flow rate, meaning more air through the filter in a given amount of time.

I hope this helps.

Oh Man! You had everything NAILED until you started talking about K&N filters lol. We've answered that one. Seriously, good explanation.

OP, I was answering about temperature and then somehow got into altitude but here is what happens: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/133786-cold-air-horsepower.html
 
Yep, the motor makes less power at altitude.

Just for kicks, these are the conditions of rated SAE standard J1349 HP and TQ.

1. A barometer of 29.235” Hg.
2. An ambient air temperature of 77
3. A relative humidity of 0%

You can definitely feel it. Rough guess is you loose about 20% of total power from sea level to Denver. MPG may improve though.... That one is a bit harder to grock.

One other thing I heard mentioned. You will still feel HP power loss at alt with a super charger...but not typically with a turbo. The reason is how boost is controlled. With a super charger it is hard wired to the crank speed. With a turbo, you have a pressure activated waste gate.

Many piston driven aircraft engines have turbos that only function to maintain HP with altitude...
 
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I'm going to start calling it the air pedal instead of the gas pedal from now on! I wonder if it will catch on?


Take the balloon as an example, if you fill it at sea level and then drive 5000ft up a mountain (roughly Denver), the balloon will get bigger and maybe burst. Why? Because the pressure around the balloon is less the higher you go. The pressure in the balloon will try to equalize with the pressure outside of the balloon. Less pressure means the molecules of air are spaced further apart, taking up more volume. Hence the balloon will get bigger, possibly burst. If you fill the balloon in Denver and go down to the beach, the balloon would be limp and deflated at the beach because the molecules have gotten closer together.

It's always amusing to bring a sealed bag of chips on a hike in the mountains.

Yep, the motor makes less power at altitude.

Just for kicks, these are the conditions of rated SAE standard J1349 HP and TQ.

1. A barometer of 29.235” Hg.
2. An ambient air temperature of 77
3. A relative humidity of 0%

You can definitely feel it. Rough guess is you loose about 20% of total power from sea level to Denver. MPG may improve though.... That one is a bit harder to grock..

0% humidity? Is that even possible? I suppose they must test it under ambient conditions then compensate the result.

I've read you lose about 3% power per thousand feet elevation, so about 15% less in Denver. There are a few mountain passes in Colorado that top out around 12,000 feet, and a couple roads that go up to 14,000 feet. At 14,000 feet you only have about 157 horsepower, the same as the 2010 4 cylinder at sea level! If you are unlucky enough to have a 2010 4 cylinder, then you only have about 90hp at 14,000 feet!!

In my last car, a 2007 Civic, one time I was on my way up to 12,000 feet with my foot to the floor (because that's the only chance of maintaining speed up mountain passes in that car), and my speed dropped from 60 down to 45.

MPG seems to improve slightly. With the throttle more open there is less restriction against airflow. But higher RPMs might negate the benefit somewhat. Climbing up a mountain then coasting down seems to be a bit more efficient than cruising on a flat road. And speeds are typically slower in the mountains and drag decreases slightly.
 
The engine is controlled by the computer, not your foot.
Your foot electronically controls a valve in the intake system, aka throttle. So your foot is really giving the engine more or less air dependent upon the position of your foot.

The computer measures the amount of air entering the engine, and dispenses the proper amount of fuel for that amount of air. Hence the "gas" pedal on the floor opens the throttle, the computer adds more fuel, the extra fuel provides more power, engine rpms increase along with power output, resulting in acceleration and more speed.

Now air changes depending on a number of factors: altitude, temperature, pressure, and humidity. Change any of them and it changes how densely packed the air molecules are for a given volume of air. Now when I say volume of air, I'm talking about the amount of air in a given space like the intake manifold of your truck, or a balloon.

Take the balloon as an example, if you fill it at sea level and then drive 5000ft up a mountain (roughly Denver), the balloon will get bigger and maybe burst. Why? Because the pressure around the balloon is less the higher you go. The pressure in the balloon will try to equalize with the pressure outside of the balloon. Less pressure means the molecules of air are spaced further apart, taking up more volume. Hence the balloon will get bigger, possibly burst. If you fill the balloon in Denver and go down to the beach, the balloon would be limp and deflated at the beach because the molecules have gotten closer together.

That covers altitude, but it's not just that easy.
Warmer temperatures cause the molecules to expand as well, and cold temperatures to contract.
Ever think the H & L on the weather maps? Those are areas of high and low pressure. The higher the pressure, the closer the molecules, the smaller the balloon. The opposite applies for low, further spaced molecules, and larger balloon.

Humidity is a funny one. Think about how much air can fit into that balloon, and displace some of that with water vapor (steam). Because you've added vaporized water, there is now less air. But humidity inside the balloon doesn't change when the balloon travels. If you were to fill two different balloons with the exact same number of molecules of air on days with different humidity, the balloon filled on the higher humidity day would be bigger than the lower humidity day.

How does this apply to your "gas" pedal? You went up more than 5000ft in altitude, meaning less atmospheric pressure and less air for a given throttle setting. Less air = less fuel = less power.
Keep in mind when you go up in altitude you usually go down in temperature, so you regain some power. Although this doesn't help you if you leave the coast in the cooler morning and head up the mountain as temperatures rise as well.
Typically air at altitude is drier (less humid) than air at sea level, again a gain. But neither of these can regain the loss in pressure from altitude. Hence you will have to depress your "gas" pedal more in order to feed the engine the same amount of air for a lower throttle setting you typically use at a lower altitude.

How can you combat this? Simple, make the air more dense!
Turbo/Super-chargers use spinning blades to force more air into the intake manifold, increasing pressure and density.
Ram air scoops gather air at speed instead of from a sheltered location, increasing pressure and density. Think about sticking your hand out the window of a stopped car, no force pushing it back. Put your hand out again at 50mph, it gets pushed back. Most ram air scoops are also cold air intakes.
Cold air intakes gather air from outside of the hot engine bay, using the cooler more dense air. Because you can gather cold air from inside of your fender and out of the slipstream of the vehicle, not all cold air intakes are ram air scoops. Now don't you wish the Trail Edition hood scoops were functional, providing a cold ram air intake?!

I didn't mention much about speed of the air going through the manifold, but I'm going to touch on it. Basically the slower the air moving into the manifold, the less the pressure. So things like air filters, bends and corrugation in the tubing can slow down the air flow, decreasing pressure. In no way to I advocate running without an air filter, but this is why K&N (and similar) have better performance and power than those cheap FRAM things in Walmart. The K&N have a higher flow rate, meaning more air through the filter in a given amount of time.

I hope this helps.


So the cliff notes version of this, the rate that the skinny peddle is depressed, is proportionate to the amount of air forces in to the intake. This is variable depending on air pressure temperature and humidity?

You can compensate for low air pressure by CAI or NOS and leds under the truck.
 
Not quite. But don't forget to put on lots and lots of stickers for the extra HP they add! Get enough and you might be able to take it up Mount Everest!


It has been said the the large Cowboy up window stickers can add up 15 hp.

I think the reality is any sticker that says look at me I have a large member gives the same hp gains, proportional to the ratio of the member and sticker size. These stickers also come with the added benefits of increased heat transfer, and driver skill.
The heat transfer adds to the overall vehicle longevity, by making the vehicle rocket like with a on and off switch instead of an "air peddle". The increased driver skill allows the driver of such a modified ride, stay directly on the side of other drivers, on icy windy freeways.
 
Less power at higher altitute

The engine is controlled by the computer, not your foot.
Your foot electronically controls a valve in the intake system, aka throttle. So your foot is really giving the engine more or less air dependent upon the position of your foot.

The computer measures the amount of air entering the engine, and dispenses the proper amount of fuel for that amount of air. Hence the "gas" pedal on the floor opens the throttle, the computer adds more fuel, the extra fuel provides more power, engine rpms increase along with power output, resulting in acceleration and more speed.

Now air changes depending on a number of factors: altitude, temperature, pressure, and humidity. Change any of them and it changes how densely packed the air molecules are for a given volume of air. Now when I say volume of air, I'm talking about the amount of air in a given space like the intake manifold of your truck, or a balloon.

Take the balloon as an example, if you fill it at sea level and then drive 5000ft up a mountain (roughly Denver), the balloon will get bigger and maybe burst. Why? Because the pressure around the balloon is less the higher you go. The pressure in the balloon will try to equalize with the pressure outside of the balloon. Less pressure means the molecules of air are spaced further apart, taking up more volume. Hence the balloon will get bigger, possibly burst. If you fill the balloon in Denver and go down to the beach, the balloon would be limp and deflated at the beach because the molecules have gotten closer together.

That covers altitude, but it's not just that easy.
Warmer temperatures cause the molecules to expand as well, and cold temperatures to contract.
Ever think the H & L on the weather maps? Those are areas of high and low pressure. The higher the pressure, the closer the molecules, the smaller the balloon. The opposite applies for low, further spaced molecules, and larger balloon.

Humidity is a funny one. Think about how much air can fit into that balloon, and displace some of that with water vapor (steam). Because you've added vaporized water, there is now less air. But humidity inside the balloon doesn't change when the balloon travels. If you were to fill two different balloons with the exact same number of molecules of air on days with different humidity, the balloon filled on the higher humidity day would be bigger than the lower humidity day.

How does this apply to your "gas" pedal? You went up more than 5000ft in altitude, meaning less atmospheric pressure and less air for a given throttle setting. Less air = less fuel = less power.
Keep in mind when you go up in altitude you usually go down in temperature, so you regain some power. Although this doesn't help you if you leave the coast in the cooler morning and head up the mountain as temperatures rise as well.
Typically air at altitude is drier (less humid) than air at sea level, again a gain. But neither of these can regain the loss in pressure from altitude. Hence you will have to depress your "gas" pedal more in order to feed the engine the same amount of air for a lower throttle setting you typically use at a lower altitude.

How can you combat this? Simple, make the air more dense!
Turbo/Super-chargers use spinning blades to force more air into the intake manifold, increasing pressure and density.
Ram air scoops gather air at speed instead of from a sheltered location, increasing pressure and density. Think about sticking your hand out the window of a stopped car, no force pushing it back. Put your hand out again at 50mph, it gets pushed back. Most ram air scoops are also cold air intakes.
Cold air intakes gather air from outside of the hot engine bay, using the cooler more dense air. Because you can gather cold air from inside of your fender and out of the slipstream of the vehicle, not all cold air intakes are ram air scoops. Now don't you wish the Trail Edition hood scoops were functional, providing a cold ram air intake?!

I didn't mention much about speed of the air going through the manifold, but I'm going to touch on it. Basically the slower the air moving into the manifold, the less the pressure. So things like air filters, bends and corrugation in the tubing can slow down the air flow, decreasing pressure. In no way to I advocate running without an air filter, but this is why K&N (and similar) have better performance and power than those cheap FRAM things in Walmart. The K&N have a higher flow rate, meaning more air through the filter in a given amount of time.

I hope this helps.
i driven from 400 ft above sea level all the way up to 13000 plus feet,i lost a lot of power and speed ,going up to the mountains in order to keep the speed i been use the S3 and sometimes S2 ,and press the gas pedal ,i love my truck but up the mountains is very slow ,but still i love .
 
My expectation last summer for my 4r at 12k ft... was pretty low, but it actually surprised me. It had to work for it... but I don't think I ever had to go all the way to the floor to maintain speed on any of the passes. It was adequate.

No doubt it lost power... (I was just expecting much worse) it seemed to be happy in thinner air compared to other NA motors I have had... Some of this relates to those conditions letting it run with the VVT-i kicked in. Plus the reduction in aerodynamic drag with it being such a brick.
 
you need a TRD intake and a t4r.org sticker

Yeah, the T4R.org sticker makes up for the 25-50 hp loss at altitude!

I am in the Colorado mountains all the time. Yes, I lose power. But, what helps a bit is manually shifting. On the way up to the Eisenhower tunnel or Freemont pass last week, 3rd was just fine... and that goes up to 11k.
 
My 2011 GTI was a direct injection turbo 4, with mods it was 280hp/300tq in a small relatively light package. It was nice in paved mountain roads because you could easily blow past damn near everything on the road (especially with N/A cars loosing so much power at elevation). When I lived in Chicago (700ish feet) you could rolling burnouts in second gear of you punched it, on a damp highway it would spin 3rd at 60mph. Moving to Boulder (5500 ft) it would barely break them loose from a second gear roll, a little noise and that's it. At 9-10K it started to feel pretty slow, by 12 I felt bad for turbo, at 14K the throttle felt like delayed on/off switch, you'd give it gas and it's like it didn't want to love until boost hit and then even with boost you it was trying so hard and not really go anywhere.

Altitude is a *****, forced induction helps a but you can't offset it, it's going to rob power.
 

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