Lets group E-mail Toyota demanding V8

[JBgotM]

I do not envy you in your job. The US Government keeps moving the targets for emissions, etc. that the diesel engine makers have to meet. Standards may be a good thing for the environment but I often wonder about the time-tables involved.

Doesn't it stand to reason that as more diesel engines are used in vehicles their costs can be kept under control to some extent? For instance, if Toyota developed a diesel engine that could be used in the 4Runner, Sequoia and Tundra could they not spread out the costs to some extent? If they are essentially the same engine couldn't they share parts, components and R&D costs? I would imagine that certification costs would be charged to each vehicle (which can be costly).

Personally, I have no problem with a smaller gas engine replacing a larger gas or even a diesel engine. Just make sure that smaller gas engine is in a vehicle with a 7K tow rating, has 4WD and most of all will last given what I ask it to do.

We make much more than just engines, but yes, the scope of our engine division has grown immensely. The investment to develop engines to keep up with the diesel regulations is an astonishing amount with many zeros behind it. You can take advantage of quantity, but even so, when an engine goes from a single turbo to a dual turbo, with egr, with exhaust filters, with urea injection (and associated level senders, quality sensors, heaters to keep it from freezing, etc) it just all adds up. The amount of sensors approximately doubles with each new set of emissions regulations.

Toyota could develop a variant of the 4.0L V6 (using much of the existing tooling and processes) that could very easily be boosted above the levels of the 4.7L V8. You could have uprated capabilities with gas mileage improved from the V8. I have a feeling if Toyota offered a 280+hp turbo V6 with 7k+ towing capabilities, most of the people wanting a V8 would be perfectly happy.

I'll give an example of my daily driver. I drive a 2.5L 4 cylinder turbo Subaru. I get 22-26mpg, and I make over 350hp.

 

[dwulffusa]

Quite possibly. It still made me laugh. :lol:

Now this is back to roots. I like these ads.
And a 2.4 4cylinder was considered plenty grunt back then, even if it topped out at 120km/h.

Barry Crump Helps Sell Toyota Hiluxes To Fellow New Zealand Hoons - hilux - Jalopnik

 

[gadgetman13]

V8 wanted

I was waiting a long time for the 2010's to come in and REALLY wanted one. We'd test driven a used 2008 a week before, but I really wanted the 2010. When the dealer called, my wife and I rushed over there to see it and drive it asap. Sitting in it, I loved it. It felt so much more spacious - and I know, the dimensions haven't changed that much, but the redesign really does make it feel bigger. I gave her the first shot at driving it and after the very first corner _she_ immediately noticed the sluggishness. What a disappointment. I got behind the wheel to see if maybe she just wasn't flooring it, but no, even with 'full steam ahead' I just didn't get the response I wanted. That same night we purchased the used 2008 V8 vs the 2010 V6 - and trust me when I say that's NOT what I wanted before the test drive. I just foresee that _every_ time I wanted to pass someone on the highway, or accelerate off the line, I'd feel a pang of disappointment and regret the decision to get the 2010. And we let the dealer know this.

I'm thinking that it'll take a few years but hopefully demand will require Toyota to put a better engine in there. It really can only go one of three ways: 1) the 4Runner is cancelled (or redesigned to be like all the other crossovers), 2) they put a V8 back in, or 3) they beef up the V6.

My primary purposes (because neither of them ranks higher than the other) were: towing and non-extreme off-roading. I'm sure the 2010 could have accomplished both tasks, but while V8's are available for test-driving, I think more than just me will notice the difference.

 

[M1911]

I'm thinking that it'll take a few years but hopefully demand will require Toyota to put a better engine in there. It really can only go one of three ways: 1) the 4Runner is cancelled (or redesigned to be like all the other crossovers), 2) they put a V8 back in, or 3) they beef up the V6.

Or they figure out how to keep it the same size as the 4th/5th gen and take off the 400 lbs of lard that they added on to the 5th gen.

 

[sandcrawler]

I was waiting a long time for the 2010's to come in and REALLY wanted one. We'd test driven a used 2008 a week before, but I really wanted the 2010. When the dealer called, my wife and I rushed over there to see it and drive it asap. Sitting in it, I loved it. It felt so much more spacious - and I know, the dimensions haven't changed that much, but the redesign really does make it feel bigger. I gave her the first shot at driving it and after the very first corner _she_ immediately noticed the sluggishness. What a disappointment. I got behind the wheel to see if maybe she just wasn't flooring it, but no, even with 'full steam ahead' I just didn't get the response I wanted. That same night we purchased the used 2008 V8 vs the 2010 V6 - and trust me when I say that's NOT what I wanted before the test drive. I just foresee that _every_ time I wanted to pass someone on the highway, or accelerate off the line, I'd feel a pang of disappointment and regret the decision to get the 2010. And we let the dealer know this.

I'm thinking that it'll take a few years but hopefully demand will require Toyota to put a better engine in there. It really can only go one of three ways: 1) the 4Runner is cancelled (or redesigned to be like all the other crossovers), 2) they put a V8 back in, or 3) they beef up the V6.

My primary purposes (because neither of them ranks higher than the other) were: towing and non-extreme off-roading. I'm sure the 2010 could have accomplished both tasks, but while V8's are available for test-driving, I think more than just me will notice the difference.

ouch. that sucks (for the 2010, i mean.) but congrats on grabbing your '08 V8 4Runner! you were lucky to have the option!

 

[eskimochaos]

I emailed them to thank them for NOT offering the V8. IT IS NOT NEEDED!

LOL its people like you that are taking the individuality out of the USA. Who the **** are you to tell someone what they can and cant have.

Gadget man, good call on the V8 - the '10 feels anemic with the V6 - I cant imagine what it would feel like loaded down let alone towing 5k pounds.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

If the demand for a V8 was so overwhelming like it's portrayed on here then Toyota would've kept it but in the real world sales the V6 out sold the V8 but it didn't so how is that telling Toyota they needed a V8 after selling less than 5000 or so or 'em in the last year. The 4Runner's future doesn't hinge on having or not having a V8 but I can see them continuing to make the V6 more powerful.

 

[4RBob]

If the demand for a V8 was so overwhelming like it's portrayed on here then Toyota would've kept it but in the real world sales the V6 out sold the V8 but it didn't so how is that telling Toyota they needed a V8 after selling less than 5000 or so or 'em in the last year. The 4Runner's future doesn't hinge on having or not having a V8 but I can see them continuing to make the V6 more powerful.

I know the new 4Runner is heavier, but I'm not so sure the new V6 is more powerful than the 4th Gen V6, at least at lower RPM's. I'd like to see the power/torque band charts of the new V6, 4th Gen V6 and V8.

Also, the V6 in the 4th Gen was adequete for most people, hence the V8 was not needed/wanted by most.

 

[PSchoolen]

i test drove a 2010 SR5 today and while the V6 is ok, it felt more like "good enough" to me. highway pep was pretty non-existent, relative to the V8.

I just test drove a 2010 SR5 and feel exactly as you do. The V8 is just so much nicer. Just a better driving experience. I LOVE my 08 SE V8 but I especially love the new look of the 2010. If only it was available with the V8......

 

[sandcrawler]

If the demand for a V8 was so overwhelming like it's portrayed on here then Toyota would've kept it but in the real world sales the V6 out sold the V8 but it didn't so how is that telling Toyota they needed a V8 after selling less than 5000 or so or 'em in the last year. The 4Runner's future doesn't hinge on having or not having a V8 but I can see them continuing to make the V6 more powerful.

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't selling 5000 V8s amount to a non-trivial portion of (recent) total 4Runner sales? like 1/3? seriously, i'd like to know.

sure, gas prices haven't helped, but the economy seems the likeliest factor in the bunk sales figures the 4Runner has been putting on the board for Toyota.

 

[charlier180]

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't selling 5000 V8s amount to a non-trivial portion of (recent) total 4Runner sales? like 1/3? seriously, i'd like to know.

sure, gas prices haven't helped, but the economy seems the likeliest factor in the bunk sales figures the 4Runner has been putting on the board for Toyota.

THANK YOU. Lots of people here say that very few V8 4Runners were sold.
Problem is, Toyota has never broken down their sales figures which would prove just how bad (or not so bad) sales ACTUALLY were.

Time will tell if Toyota does offer a V8 or not in the 4Runner.
There are many, many, unanswered questions when it comes to the V8 4Runner...

- Was the lack of a V8 in 2010 the result of low sales of 4th Gen V8s?
- Is a V8 4Runner profitable for Toyota given it's 4th gen sales numbers and projected 5th gen sales?
- Is Toyota trying to spread out/delay the certification costs in the USA by delaying the intro of a 5th gen V8 4Runner?
- Is Toyota waiting to make a final decision on a V8 until they see how well the 2010 V6 does in sales?
- Does Toyota care about the backlash from current V8 4Runner owners over the lack of a 5th Gen V8?
- Do current or potential owners of a V8 4Runner really even care about MPG and gas prices?
- How many current V8 4Runner owners will take their business elsewhere when they need/want to replace their current V8 4Runner?

I am sure these and other questions have/are going through the minds of Toyota executives. If not, they should be.

 

[PredBlue]

I thought I would share a conversation I had regarding the V-8 while test driving the 2010 4Runner over the holidays. The person I deal with is the sales manager who specifically oversees the truck/SUV sales, sales planning and ordering side at this particular dealership. Although everybody is trying to sell you something, I've found this person to be "honest" and forthcoming with information in the past (i.e., he was truthful about the cladding change with the 2003 model before I read it anywhere else). You can take it at face value or ignore it or whatever, but still I thought it might be of interest.

In our discussions about the 5th Gen, I expressed my disappointment with the dropping of the V-8, and asked what the chances were that Toyota would put the V-8 back in the 4Runner. He told me "...in my opinion, extremely unlikely..." --that's a quote. He continued saying that he understood deferring a purchase until first year bugs got worked out, until they were willing to do more regarding prices, waiting for changes in option packages, or whatever, but that if I was waiting to buy strictly on the hope that Toyota would put a V-8 back in I should either consider on finding a good used 4th Gen w/V-8 or rethink whether the V-6 in the 5th Gen was sufficient for my needs.

I pressed for an explanation, and this is what he told me in no particular order:

1.) Toyota has already spent development time and money on the 5th Gen V-6. Toyota with all of their cost cutting is simply not going to spend more resources adding another engine to the current lineup.
2.) Through the early sales of the 2010 model, there has been virtually zero issue with their customers regarding the loss of the V-8....told me I was only the second person to even ask about it...and figured that would mirror the national trend of people wanting more efficient engines, not V-8's in a SUV. He couldn't see that there would be any significant market for a V-8 (despite what we think)
3.) Toyota is fully committed to the "green" image they are trying to portray. Putting a V-8 in a mid-sized SUV is the opposite of that. Plus, increased fleet mileage requirements will mean that even a 1 MPG increase is meaningful to the company.
4.) Finally, he told me that there was a significant number of dealers that have asked for a V-8 in the Taco for several years. Apparently this was widely discussed between dealers and corporate for years, and even though they felt they demonstrated that there was a good sized market for a V-8 Taco that could completely dominate the category, corporate told them no. He said if dealers showed how many customers would buy a Taco with a V-8, and Toyota still said no, why would they mess with a V-8 in a 4Runner (I've never heard any of this regarding a V-8 in a Taco, but then again I really don't pay much attention to pickups, but still interesting)

Like I said above, you can take this for whatever it's worth. He may be right, he may be totally wrong, but he felt pretty strong on his opinion about the V-8 in the 4Runner.

 

[adoihcj]

ouch. that sucks (for the 2010, i mean.) but congrats on grabbing your '08 V8 4Runner! you were lucky to have the option!

Here’s a rant …

A basic "test drive" does not do this V6 justice. What do I mean? Well, when you test drive a new vehicle, you tend to not experience "everyday" driving. Most people are a little more careful (especially if the sales person is with you), and not too many test drivers will take it out on the highway. Also, I’ve heard that because new vehicles are not broken in yet, you will not get the true feel for the power until you’ve driven it longer. The transmission needs to learn your driving habits, and then you will get a true feel for the power.

I can tell you this much, the V6 is nothing to laugh about. The torque could be better (which is what makes you feel power from a stand still start), but it's there. Remember, this engine is a dual independent VVTi. This means that when you drive it "soft," you use less fuel and will not feel the true power of the engine. You have to give the pedal a push to feel the power. VVTi (at least from my understanding) varies the timing of the valves depending on how much gas the engine is given. If you floor it, the valves change to allow for more power. I can tell you that from a stand-still, this engine performs extremely well when you give it some gas. I can also tell you that if you're on the highway, and traveling at a high rate of speed, the power is there to boost you past other vehicles.

The reason there's no V8 (and it's been said before) is there are not enough buyers of V8's out there (or even enough buyers of SUVs for that matter). The SUV market has been hit extremely hard (I know, captain obvious). The Explorer may not even be around much longer. Hummer's were the in thing a few years ago, and guess what, sales plummeted. We are lucky Toyota built an SUV and didn't invest in another girly crossover. Demand drives everything. If people were still gobbling up SUVs before the high fuel costs came about, I can guarantee you that Toyo would offer a V8. And even if gas prices go down, gas prices will go up again. When prices reach $4 or $5+ per gallon, we may start to see V6’s being phased out. There were even rumors a few years ago about $8 per gallon. If we hit that, we are all in trouble.

If you are considering buying something else because the 5th Gen 4R doesn't offer a V8, good luck finding something as fun to drive as this vehicle is.

 

[M1911]

The Explorer may not even be around much longer.

Yes, and no. A completely new Exploder is coming soon (2011 model year?). It will be a unibody SUV and I expect that it won't have a V8 option. So the body-on-frame Exploder will be gone.

I agree with others that Toyota is unlikely to bring back the V8 4Runner, unfortunately. The GX460 simply isn't an option for me given a) its price and b) that stupid side-hinged rear door.

 

[adoihcj]

So the body-on-frame Exploder will be gone.

That's exactly what happened to my '03 Eddie Bauer. I am sworn to never buying a Ford again (even if they continue to get high quality ratings). Here are all my Fords.

1979 Mercury Capri - Transmission failed, traded in.
1991 Ford Escort GT - fun for about two weeks. Replaced catalytic converter. Outgrew it.
1996 Mercury Sable - Replaced struts at 45k miles. Transmission rebuilt once - and one year later, rebuilt again. Transmission went on third occasion and traded it in.
2003 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer - Parking brake shoe replaced twice, rotor's replaced twice (that's three sets of rotors). Transfer case replaced 70,000 miles. Alternator replaced 97,000 miles (not too bad I guess). AdvanceTrac 4WD would kick in on random occasions on dry pavement, even with new "even" tires all around. Rear springs replaced 100,000 miles. Transmission failed 101,000 miles. Traded in on a 2010 SR5 4R!

 

[eskimochaos]

Here’s a rant …

A basic "test drive" does not do this V6 justice. What do I mean? Well, when you test drive a new vehicle, you tend to not experience "everyday" driving. Most people are a little more careful (especially if the sales person is with you), and not too many test drivers will take it out on the highway. Also, I’ve heard that because new vehicles are not broken in yet, you will not get the true feel for the power until you’ve driven it longer. The transmission needs to learn your driving habits, and then you will get a true feel for the power.

I can tell you this much, the V6 is nothing to laugh about. The torque could be better (which is what makes you feel power from a stand still start), but it's there. Remember, this engine is a dual independent VVTi. This means that when you drive it "soft," you use less fuel and will not feel the true power of the engine. You have to give the pedal a push to feel the power. VVTi (at least from my understanding) varies the timing of the valves depending on how much gas the engine is given. If you floor it, the valves change to allow for more power. I can tell you that from a stand-still, this engine performs extremely well when you give it some gas. I can also tell you that if you're on the highway, and traveling at a high rate of speed, the power is there to boost you past other vehicles.

The reason there's no V8 (and it's been said before) is there are not enough buyers of V8's out there (or even enough buyers of SUVs for that matter). The SUV market has been hit extremely hard (I know, captain obvious). The Explorer may not even be around much longer. Hummer's were the in thing a few years ago, and guess what, sales plummeted. We are lucky Toyota built an SUV and didn't invest in another girly crossover. Demand drives everything. If people were still gobbling up SUVs before the high fuel costs came about, I can guarantee you that Toyo would offer a V8. And even if gas prices go down, gas prices will go up again. When prices reach $4 or $5+ per gallon, we may start to see V6’s being phased out. There were even rumors a few years ago about $8 per gallon. If we hit that, we are all in trouble.

If you are considering buying something else because the 5th Gen 4R doesn't offer a V8, good luck finding something as fun to drive as this vehicle is.

Test drive a 4th gen V8 and come back to me.

Hell even the 4th gen V6 felt more powerful.

 

[sandcrawler]

Finally, he told me that there was a significant number of dealers that have asked for a V-8 in the Taco for several years. Apparently this was widely discussed between dealers and corporate for years, and even though they felt they demonstrated that there was a good sized market for a V-8 Taco that could completely dominate the category, corporate told them no. He said if dealers showed how many customers would buy a Taco with a V-8, and Toyota still said no, why would they mess with a V-8 in a 4Runner (I've never heard any of this regarding a V-8 in a Taco, but then again I really don't pay much attention to pickups, but still interesting)

seems to me that the key difference is that there never was a V8 in the Tacoma, whereas the V6-only reality with the 2010 4Runner represents a deletion.
it's really interesting feedback, however, so thanks for posting it.

 

[sandcrawler]

Here’s a rant … not too many test drivers will take it out on the highway… If you are considering buying something else because the 5th Gen 4R doesn't offer a V8, good luck finding something as fun to drive as this vehicle is.

i took one out on the highway and wasn't exactly, er, floored. but i do appreciate your position and what you're saying here.

i think the difference, and reason for the continued grousing, is that you've got a number of V8 owners on this board and, for them, a heavier 5G (even with an improved V6) without the V8 option doesn't make a compelling case for buying a new 4runner.

 

[JB.]

2.) Through the early sales of the 2010 model, there has been virtually zero issue with their customers regarding the loss of the V-8....told me I was only the second person to even ask about it....

Misleading statements like the following being widely published doesn't help. From 2010 4X4 Of The Year - 4-Wheel & Off-Road

"The Toyota 4Runner Trail competes with....a V-6 engine more powerful than the previous V-8".

 

[westwind77]

I have only owned V8's, this is my 1st V6, and I am actually HAPPY with it! Shocker, I know! I was set to pull the trigger on an 06' limited with the V8 when the 10's came out. I waited and test drove one, sorry did not see/feel a difference between the old V8 and the new V6. The ONLY big issues I see is with the towing & torque, if you are not hauling every day it is not an issue. If you are hauling every day, you might want to look into a larger Tahoe or similar. Some people have a 'complex' that they must have the biggest engine (insert tool man grunt) possible, ignoring the actual facts. My last SUV had a 5.9L V8, so for me to even consider a little 4.0L V6 was big, and for me to actually be happy with it, well that shows a lot I think.

I would like to post a 'dare' to all of the '5th gen no v8 bashers', go find tests of the older 4th gen V6 & V8 (1/4m & 0-60) and compare those to the new V6's results. I know this SUV has a faster times than my last 5.9L V8!