Lets group E-mail Toyota demanding V8

[whiskywizard]

There is no development to be done

Incorrect. The different markets (Europe, US, Canada, California, Asia, Africa, etc) each have different needs and requirements. For example, the regs pertaining to environmental standards, and the vastly different quality of fuel available mean you can't sell the exact same diesel in each market. That means extra development, more models, more parts, etc.

Right or wrong, most manufacturers don't feel there's a big enough market in NA for them to make the effort.

Personally, I like diesels. I have twin Cummins 450s in my boat now, and many years of experience with diesels. I would LOVE a 4Runner with a small-displacement turbo-diesel. I'd take a gas V-8 if it were offered again, but only for the cache; the current V-6 does the job quite well.

 

[Wakeborder556]

Hell they are squeezing more and more power out of smaller engines each year by increasing efficiency. I'd imagine in the next few years the point will become more and more moot for average consumer vehicles.

 

[dekeman]

Don't underestimate the popularity of diesel. Sure, it's still small, but it is growing, especially as more people realize today's diesels aren't the — cough, cough — belchers of old. "Take rates" for manufacturers selling diesels are gaining in the US — the bigger problem is the supply of diesel, or the US's refining capability for it, which is not growing, so there's no price relief on the horizon, and the premium for diesel is dampening the appetite for it.
That said, Toyota did partner with BMW on engine technology, and turbo four cylinders are popping up like dandelions in April, some of them turbo diesels, which is a powerplant that makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't put money on the 4R getting a diesel anytime soon, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a turbo V6, aka the Ford EcoBoost. A simple turbo coupled with direct injection would, at the snap of the fingers, solve the torque (power), economy and max towing capability that seem to be attracting the most criticism on the 4R, plus it would have the added benefit of aiding Toyota's Cafe position.

 

[offroadingatc]

Yes, I'm well aware of that. But the reality is that the 4Runner gets pretty crappy mileage right now, and Toyota does need to improve it. How they plan to do that is something that only they know at this point.

compared to what?

 

[ClockWork]

Manufacturers are reluctant to develop diesels because of the emission standards that the US has in place on them. The current standards are stricter than those in the EU. Meeting the standards in the US is not as easy or cheap as one might think.

 

[dekeman]

^^ True, and the current urea solution, however effective, isn't the ultimate answer. Other solutions are in the works, though.

 

[1engineer]

^^ True, and the current urea solution, however effective, isn't the ultimate answer. Other solutions are in the works, though.

I agree. Unfortunately, the solutions have been in the works for 30+ years. I have intimate knowledge of tier 3 and tier 4 emissions standards for off highway diesels. They (we) have been working on meeting those standards for the last 20 years and still only up to tier 3 and spent BILLIONS of dollars getting to that point. Yes, the US has rules so please, instead of writing Toyota about wanting diesels just write your congressman as they have control.

 

[philsey]

No diesel for you!

...... I wouldn't put money on the 4R getting a diesel anytime soon,

Agree.

Aside from all the user acceptance reasons mentioned heretofore, I think there's another:

Unlike European and American mfgrs, Toyota has no diesel presence in the U.S. By this I mean no infrastructure, eg parts, training, marketing, reputation, etc etc. To start this up in a major marketplace would be an immense task and cost, and could not be cost-justified on any small volume product - perhaps at this stage (of U.S. acceptance) not at all.

The D.I. / Turbo'd / Intercooled gas engines however, present only a modern, refined extension of these existing infrastructures, and IMO the only route for Toyota to take.

 

[theizzardking]

 

[CAN-03runner]

Incorrect. The different markets (Europe, US, Canada, California, Asia, Africa, etc) each have different needs and requirements. For example, the regs pertaining to environmental standards, and the vastly different quality of fuel available mean you can't sell the exact same diesel in each market. That means extra development, more models, more parts, etc.

Right or wrong, most manufacturers don't feel there's a big enough market in NA for them to make the effort.

Personally, I like diesels. I have twin Cummins 450s in my boat now, and many years of experience with diesels. I would LOVE a 4Runner with a small-displacement turbo-diesel. I'd take a gas V-8 if it were offered again, but only for the cache; the current V-6 does the job quite well.

I don't disagree totally. I kinda agree. What i'm saying is that the cars and trucks exist already. That's what I mean. They don't have to invent a deisel engine, or mate it to another transmission or something etc...It's not a totally new 100% development that needs to be done. Toyota has always made deisels. It's not out of the ordinary.

But I did also say that having deisels in NA, where they don't have any would mean training their NA technicians, keeping a hole new set of parts inventory, training sales staff etc...

VW always had some deisel, now and again. Maybe it was easier for them. Or they are willing to take that risk as part of their strategy.

Who knows??? My wifes 2.5L V6 gets about 10-12L/100km. I can attempt to get 14-16L/100km with my V8 4runner. But my 4runner is huge in comparison, can tow, doesn't get stuck in the snow, and is AWD too. All for just a little more gas, and she even needs to put premium fuel. Anyways, once a car is paid for, all of a sudden you have a huge car payment for gas if you want to....I'm not sure I want to get to new car payments again. I'm happy just paying gas.

 

[dekeman]

The D.I. / Turbo'd / Intercooled gas engines however, present only a modern, refined extension of these existing infrastructures, and IMO the only route for Toyota to take.

And the engine bay has plenty of room for one. Instead of the V8, maybe we should be demanding a Borg/Warner twin-scroll turbo!

 

[1engineer]

Lets put this to bed, shall we?

Alright. A modern typical vehicle with ICE (internal combustion engine) is somewhere between 16-30% efficient. Thats right. No mistake. Your engine is typically a heater. If you check the available energy in the fuel and the output energy of your engine you have about 20% efficiency. BTW I am purposely leaving out units for laymen's clarity.

Don't you think there is a little room for improvement there?

Yes, modern engines are more efficient than older engines but nowhere near as efficient as they could be. 38% is about max (thermodynamic measure of steel engine) and we are currently nowhere near that. You guys say diesel is more efficient. I say prove it. Diesels offer improved torque but at a cost, usually in higher up front expenses and right now higher fuel costs. Also the added cost to meet emissions standards. Ford's ecoboost? Direct injection? Turbo? Every single one of them, by the time you add in up front costs or increased costs for maintenance or breakage are no more efficient than a standard engine. Sure, you get more...something (power, speed, noise, torque) but that more something = more cost so where do you save?

It is a very simple model OEM's use. Make money. Yep, that's it. Give the people what they ask for as cheaply as possible. Right now very few (at least for the 4Runner segment) are asking for more power. If they do, Toyota will build a vehicle with more power and charge consumers for it. Simple.

Lastly, for all those who think CAFE standards will go up if Toyota put a diesel or a turbo on a 4Runner: Do you seriously think for a minute that there has not been a detailed cost-benefit analysis run by Toyota engineers and accountants? You think they will read about it on this forum, smack their forehead with their hand and exclaim "Gee, why didn't we think of that?" C'mon.

 

[dekeman]

Not sure this needs to be put to bed - it's a good discussion (if rambling). I also wouldn't be so hasty to discount the value of a particular forum thread; manufacturer's certainly don't. Forums can be direct and invaluable pipelines to the manufacturer's customer base, where feedback is brutally honest.

Of course no one here is going to enlighten Toyota on what it needs to do for CAFE, and I don't think anyone was suggesting that. But a consensus of opinion (if there is one) around a particular topic will reveal what Toyota customers prefer, what they are thinking, what they desire. And best of all, it's free.

 

[1engineer]

Not sure this needs to be put to bed - it's a good discussion (if rambling). I also wouldn't be so hasty to discount the value of a particular forum thread; manufacturer's certainly don't. Forums can be direct and invaluable pipelines to the manufacturer's customer base, where feedback is brutally honest.

Of course no one here is going to enlighten Toyota on what it needs to do for CAFE, and I don't think anyone was suggesting that. But a consensus of opinion (if there is one) around a particular topic will reveal what Toyota customers prefer, what they are thinking, what they desire. And best of all, it's free.

I just meant the misconception that diesel, turbo, supercharged or direct injected are better or more efficient. All modern IC engines are more efficient than their predecessors. All are good but there are tradeoffs for their selling points such as initial cost or reduced component life. What everyone REALLY secretly wants is a V8 or diesel at the same cost point of the current V6.

 

[whiskywizard]

"Gee, why didn't we think of that?"

Today, Toyota announced a merger with Ford. They will be installing this engine in 2013 4Runners, Tacomas, Sequoias and Tundras. Tow rating may drop slightly.

 

[dekeman]

Ah yes, the 1.0L turbo. Just shows how much more improvement can be found in the ICE, as 1engineer points out. Shows there is a replacement for displacement, and it's called refinement. It is rather disheartening that in the past 20 years the average fuel economy has risen only slightly.

 

[1engineer]

Ah yes, the 1.0L turbo. Just shows how much more improvement can be found in the ICE, as 1engineer points out. Shows there is a replacement for displacement, and it's called refinement. It is rather disheartening that in the past 20 years the average fuel economy has risen only slightly.

Yes it has according to the complex way they are calculated. Over 25% in some cases.RITA | BTS | Table 4-23: Average Fuel Efficiency of U.S. Light Duty Vehicles

 

[dekeman]

That's exactly what I mean. Less than 1 per cent improvement per year. It's an embarrassment. An import car averaged almost 30 mpg in 1989. Today it's close to 35 mpg.
Compare that with the speed of microprocessors, computers, or other consumer electronics. Obviously kettles to oranges comparison, but 25 per cent is nothing to crow about given the timeline.

 

[thebwlife]

That's exactly what I mean. Less than 1 per cent improvement per year. It's an embarrassment. An import car averaged almost 30 mpg in 1989. Today it's close to 35 mpg.
Compare that with the speed of microprocessors, computers, or other consumer electronics. Obviously kettles to oranges comparison, but 25 per cent is nothing to crow about given the timeline.

But remember at the end of the day a gasoline engine is mechanical not electrical.

 

[dekeman]

Of course, but that same mechanical component has had no trouble gaining several hundred per cent improvements in horsepower over the years because that's what most of us want. Cheap fuel has meant efficiency has taken a back seat for years. What we need now is a way to keep all that gained power AND be efficient, both in terms of emissions and economy.