Lexus Dethroned, Buick and Jaguar Tie for 1st in J.D. Power Dependability Study

[Rover+Runner]

Actually, when i bought my Corolla, Sienna, and Highlander, the Toyota salesman was quite aggressive in getting me to give him good scores on their surveys!

The crux of my conspiracy theory is that Buick is applies the same pressure that you experienced at the Toyota dealership but Buick does it specifically for the JD Power survey.

Scenerio: Phone rings at dinner time...
"Hi Mr. Jones, I just wanted to follow up on your new Lucerne purchase. Mr. & Mrs. Jones, now if you get a survey from JD Power in the future please give us the highest marks and if you can't give me a call and I'll personally make sure your taken care of..."

IDK no friends with Buicks to confirm/deny

 

[LandRvr Convert]

Man I hope I don't ever get old enough to consider any BUICK good looking enough to purchase.

No sh!t dude!!! Same here!! When I see a Buick on the road...even a brand new one, I'm kinda scratching my head thinking WTF??

 

[dieselwolf]

When a salesman wants you to give 10 on the survey, that has nothing to do with J.D Power or any survey, it's for the salesman's CSI number, (Customer Satisfactory Index) and they get comission based on the CSI score. They just tring to make they money and be the highest ranked salesman at the dealership.

 

[Rover+Runner]

I would not buy VW because the trend says that it sucks the big one...and it has suck for so long!

Not always the case. She wanted the Tiguan because her 04 Jetta was rock solid reliable for us. 4motion did great this winter and with a turbo is actually fairly fun to drive. The Highlander and CRV have gotten too big for her to park downtown.

 

[Rover+Runner]

When a salesman wants you to give 10 on the survey, that has nothing to do with J.D Power or any survey, it's for the salesman's CSI number, (Customer Satisfactory Index) and they get comission based on the CSI score. They just tring to make they money and be the highest ranked salesman at the dealership.

My point is that Buick may tell customers to give them good results on the JD Power survey...not the CSI survey.

 

[Thai]

Not always the case. She wanted the Tiguan because her 04 Jetta was rock solid reliable for us. 4motion did great this winter and with a turbo is actually fairly fun to drive. The Highlander and CRV have gotten too big for her to park downtown.

At the same time, my neighbor's daughter's Jetta was lemoned....

IMHO, until Buick does actually target JD Powers (no evidence at all to support this), we should leave speculation out of this thread....

 

[Rover+Runner]

Fair enough. I still have a hard time believing this survey having driven my fair share of Buick rental cars.

 

[Thai]

Fair enough. I still have a hard time believing this survey having driven my fair share of Buick rental cars.

Rental cars are abused day in and day out...it is not fair to compare them to privately owned cars.

 

[Rover+Runner]

I agree rental cars are abused but overall, my personal experience is the imports I've had as rental cars have held up/been in much better shape than the domestics. To be fair Fords have been in better shape than most GM/Chrysler products.

I've been averaging 3-4 rentals/month for work for the past two years. Almost every GM product I've driven >1 yr. old had something wrong with it - either broken lumbar support, strange noises from transmission, broken missing trim pieces, non-functioning trunk releases, non-working key fobs, etc. Overall, IMHO the imports are always in better shaper and surveys can be skewed. I think Consumer Reports is more reliable in that their tests are completely independent and do not rely on owners (who may be biased). Just my 2 cents. I'm done ranting. :bigok:

http://tinyurl.com/clkbj9

 

[morphius909]

Initial quality means nothing. I would rather have a TOYOTA with a few more initial problems but phenomenal long term reliability than a Buick with better initial but terrible long term. I mean come on, it's DOMESTIC CRAP!

Don't worry about the initial survey.

 

[Thai]

Initial quality means nothing. I would rather have a TOYOTA with a few more initial problems but phenomenal long term reliability than a Buick with better initial but terrible long term. I mean come on, it's DOMESTIC CRAP!

Don't worry about the initial survey.

Did you guys even read the link above?? This is NOT the initial quality survey!

 

[EH007]

Did you guys even read the link above?? This is NOT the initial quality survey!

That's because most people equate JD Powers with their popular intial quality surveys. For long term data, I trust Consumer Reports much more than JDPowers.

 

[Thai]

For long term data, I trust Consumer Reports much more than JDPowers.

Actually, did you know that CR has been coming down on Toyota hard lately?? They no longer recommend Toyota, as they do Honda.

 

[Rover+Runner]

Ok, consider this: the survey states that the sample of owners was 46,000. In 2006, 7,667,066 new vehicles classified as passenger cars were sold. 46,000/7,667,066 = 0.599%.

The sample population includes less than 1% of the total population.

Further, I counted 35 manufacturers listed. 46,000 surveys/35 manufacturers = 1314.29 surveys per manufacturer (assuming equal distribution of surveys were considered per manufacturer).

1314.29 surveys considered per manf./7,667,066 cars sold in 2006 = 0.017%

 

[RonMAIDEN]

Does this really matter to any of us pro-Toyota guys? It's not like it's going to sway us toward Buick and Toyota's quality is still well above average.

 

[Thai]

Ok, consider this: the survey states that the sample of owners was 46,000. In 2006, 7,667,066 new vehicles classified as passenger cars were sold. 46,000/7,667,066 = 0.599%.

The sample population includes less than 1% of the total population.

Further, I counted 35 manufacturers listed. 46,000 surveys/35 manufacturers = 1314.29 surveys per manufacturer (assuming equal distribution of surveys were considered per manufacturer).

1314.29 surveys considered per manf./7,667,066 cars sold in 2006 = 0.017%

So, are you saying that Lexus being at the top (and Toyota only a few steps down) for the past 14 years is purely luck and that Lexus makes crappy vehicles???

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be so bias and blinded by their own beliefs!

 

[Rover+Runner]

Nope. I'm saying that I have problems with their survey methodology, and that you can't always believe what 'experts' publish without looking at the actual data. Shiny gold award notwithstanding, I think that without a scientific work paper to explain their results this amounts to a load of bull. The problem is even at their website, they don't publish any type of white paper explaining their methodology. At best they are taking a sample size of about 1300 surveys per manufacturer (46,000/35). They do not state that they take into account differences in sales volume or an even distribution of surveys from around the United States.

Toyota
2006 vehicles sold in USA = 2,542,524
1314 surveys/2,542,524 vehicles = 0.052%

Would you base your opinion of something off of 0.052% of the population?

Also, in looking at their website, their first headline is that "Toyota dominates list of most reliable cars"
and that 6 of the 10 most reliable new car models are from Toyota.

But hey, I give them credit, because they have a ton of people talking about their survey and have probably driven alot of traffic to their website. If they would have come out with the headline "6 of 10" most reliable new car models are from Toyota, we wouldn't be talking about it still.

notes:
sales figures from Toyota website: http://tinyurl.com/dkacd2
JD Power website:
http://www.jdpower.com/

 

[Thai]

Is Consumer Reports any better??

What is "good enough"? You based your impression on rental cars...is that fair? Is that a better way to do things than JD Powers?? You also based your impression on beliefs that Buick is forcing people to give them favorable surveys. Am i under the impression that you're grabbing at straws here?!

This is why i don't look at one particular results...i look at the trend among the surveys. Don't get me wrong, i love Toyota...i have owned many of them. But, i also do not believe in blind enthusiasm. It is no coincidence that more and more surveys are showing a few flaws in Toyota and Lexus in recent years with new model designs. Toyota itself has even admitted it.

Remember, JD Powers "flawed" methodology has also made Lexus a winner the past 14 years, with Toyota right behind it! If it is flawed, then it is one accurate flaw that Toyota has used to advertised its cars!!

 

[Rover+Runner]

Is Consumer Reports any better??
Yes! Consumer Reports does not take money from entities they are evaluating; UNLIKE JD Powers. Check out this price list to get your car dealership certified as JD Powers approved: http://tiny.cc/sR5pk


What is "good enough"? You based your impression on rental cars...is that fair? Is that a better way to do things than JD Powers?? You also based your impression on beliefs that Buick is forcing people to give them favorable surveys. Am i under the impression that you're grabbing at straws here?!

No, it's mainly a function of how much time I had to dedicate to my argument. Admittedly, my first reaction was "hmm, Buck = mediocre at best, they must have told people to give them good marks to score that high." Then, I thought about personal experience, and that most of the GM products I've driven, and there's been alot of garbage (including a brand new Pontiac G6 with broken A/C) which is why I went to rental cars. Then when u didn't buy that, rolled up my sleeves and dug into the actual survey methodology, which turned out to be crap, affirming my initial opinions.

This is why i don't look at one particular results...i look at the trend among the surveys. Don't get me wrong, i love Toyota...i have owned many of them. But, i also do not believe in blind enthusiasm. It is no coincidence that more and more surveys are showing a few flaws in Toyota and Lexus in recent years with new model designs. Toyota itself has even admitted it.

Remember, JD Powers "flawed" methodology has also made Lexus a winner the past 14 years, with Toyota right behind it! If it is flawed, then it is one accurate flaw that Toyota has used to advertised its cars!!

True, but who knows. Maybe they needed a publicity stunt this year to draw money and attention to themselves. It's certainly drawn attention. And paying thousands of dollars to get a dealership certified is totally wrong. Which makes me lose all faith in them as an 'independent' source of information :

 

[Thai]

True, but who knows. Maybe they needed a publicity stunt this year to draw money and attention to themselves. It's certainly drawn attention. And paying thousands of dollars to get a dealership certified is totally wrong. Which makes me lose all faith in them as an 'independent' source of information :

Did you know that CR has been coming down on Toyota too?? (Am i sounding like a broken record?) Coincidence?

BTW, like lexus vs. Toyota, i am sure that there are differences in GM products. For example, i am sure that the Cadillac CTS is of high quality than a Pontiac G6. Or that a Buick is of higher quality than a Pontiac. I am sure that there is more quality checkpoints and more quality stuff for a Buick vs. a Chevy. So, your rationalization of a Pontiac G6 being equal to a Buick is flawed.