Long Travel Rear with KDSS Issue

[wfo9]

Agreed!

That's why I asked the question.

I was hell-bent on trying to figure out how to get a full LT system until seeing what the existing setup was capable of tackling.

True, but you should see what LT can do before taking it off the consideration list. I was blown away by the difference myself. I'm not one of those people who make things sound better than they are because I spent money or time on it..... It's just that the LT benefits were much more than I expected. First modification I was really blown away by. I expected a lot from the lockers and they delivered on what I was expecting, but the LT was a serious jaw dropper.

And I'm not even sure how much more it can do...It's just how darn graceful it does it. The guys without it can do everything I have attempted so far, but they need way more momentum and struggle a bit.

 

[Jetboy]

The advantages of long travel suspension in non-racing (by this I mean jumping or high speed desert type racing) use are for traction and for body stability over rough terrain.

With a locking rear differential I'm not sure we're gaining much or really anything in traction. The loaded tire under compression will have nearly all of the force and friction to provide traction. With the design of the 4runner stock suspension I'm not sure how much load is actually on the tire when it droops beyond where it would stock. This is something I do not have any meaningful data on and I could be completely wrong. If the two tires at 90% of full flex are still only split 60/40 on weight, it's a legitimate advantage. If it's more like 90/10 at 90% of flex, it's not adding much.

The other issue is body stability. When two tires are in the air, it becomes generally unstable and not only uncomfortable but often uncontrollable. Due to the very limited front travel inherent in an ifs setup with short a-arms, I don't know how much additional body stability we're getting from long travel rear setups. Without adequate front flex, the instability is created by the front travel limitations and having a long travel rear isn't really balancing the body position in the middle between two equal systems.

These are the reasons that at first blush I think KDSS is better than long travel rear - even in high flex situations.

 

[Intruder]

Without adequate front flex, the instability is created by the front travel limitations and having a long travel rear isn't really balancing the body position in the middle between two equal systems.

I think I'd lean more towards doing long travel front than rear. Yeah it's a lot more money when you go the TC route, but I've seen their kit in use on Tacomas and FJCs and it's impressive. I think I'd sooner get TC up front than a front locker, though ideally you'd run both

Again, this is my thought based on personal experience for the wheeling I do so please don't send me any angry letters. YMMV.

 

[wfo9]

This is something I do not have any meaningful data on and I could be completely wrong.

I don't have any actual data either... but you should give it a try before dismissing it. That's really all I can say. The difference surprised the heck out of me. I was expecting a little more traction and body stability... but it changed things up dramatically. There could be some placebo effect going on...but I'm 100% sure my truck can do many things it could not do before.

Maybe you should talk to folks that have it vs coming up with theories....

Sometimes I think people are contrary here on purpose, but maybe I'm imagining all this. :loco:

Good luck with your builds.

 

[jrandom]

Something like this setup: 1995 4Runner 3 Link Front and Rear Build - Page 2 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum

good god what a setup! that is some pretty impressive work.

 

[adam2562]

In regards to one of you who don't think doing long travel in the rear helps much.. i disagree.. A. more traction when the rear tires/vehicle would otherwise potentially be off the ground (yes locker helps in the scenario) B. vehicle stability so you won't do as much teetering on a rock/obstacle. C. FLEX BRO! lol.. no but really, it helps with rock crawling which is basically any trail here on the east coast. I will gladly take the longer travel. i don't wanna ditch the KDSS but if that's the only way, i will, down the road when the KDSS starts to give me problems, but i just don't want a pesky light on the dash all the time when it gets taken out.

 

[WarnerD9]

My goodness, it's not for everyone. I ended up taking it off and now I run HD OME with no sway bar. If you are doing heavy wheeling with lots of articulation where traction is vital and lockerS aren't enough then do it, you'll love it. If you think KDSS has any value at all then don't waste your time.

The science is in the application not speculation. It doesn't matter how good it is or isn't if you don't use it.

I was impressed with what the setup could do IN OFFROAD APPLICATIONS. It is still street worthy but not meant for the safety first and handling. If you don't need it don't get it. The same manufacturer and distributors have better systems for occasional off road use and you don't have to make compromises.

If you just want flex photos of your truck then disconnect your shocks and sway bars, flex, photograph, and post then reinstall everything and move on with life.

Front and rear LT will make for a trailer queen with impressive off road skills or a hwy accident waiting to happen.

 

[Jetboy]

I don't have any actual data either... but you should give it a try before dismissing it. That's really all I can say. The difference surprised the heck out of me. I was expecting a little more traction and body stability... but it changed things up dramatically. There could be some placebo effect going on...but I'm 100% sure my truck can do many things it could not do before.

Maybe you should talk to folks that have it vs coming up with theories....

Sometimes I think people are contrary here on purpose, but maybe I'm imagining all this. :loco:

Good luck with your builds.

First: Yes, i'm often the devil's advocate. Sometimes challenging the groupthink is worthwhile. Not intending to offend anyone. Just challenge the premises I find questionable. And I often learn something as a result. In this case I'm still pretty solidly in the camp of not giving up KDSS for an extra couple of rear travel.

My main question was whether it's worth the thousands of dollars for a high end bolt on setup vs doing a proper rear suspension for offroading with calculated anti-squat, lots of travel, better inherent geometry for stability with outboarded longer lower spring rate coils etc. And a second question of whether it's actually helping in a meaningful way with front IFS and whether the same money would be better spent on a front suspension replacement. Considering that Metal Techs' long travel setup is around $800, it's a lot less expensive than I had thought. For that price - and based on the progressive rate coils which I really like in general - it's not a high budget upgrade.

FWIW, I'm happy to compare. All I have myself is my trail rig, but it's more capable in 2wd than my 4runner is in 4x4, so I don't think it's really worthwhile. If anyone in northern Utah has a long travel setup and wants to go out - if you can run any line that I cannot with KDSS, I'll be happy to compare the results and we can put a few videos to show the difference. I think we could also find an app to track the body angles during each obstacle to compare which setup remains more stable with quantifiable comparison data.

 

[1engineer]

huh... imagine that. People who have spent money on something defend it. What is the world coming to? Strip it all away and it comes down to the skill of the driver. You guys (every single one of you on this page at least) know that a modded out rig in the hands of an amateur won't go anywhere close to a stock vehicle in the hands of a seasoned pro.

Lastly, the more off road mods you make the less road friendly it will be. There is a fine line and I have crossed it too many times. That's why my 4Runner is stock...

 

[DesertCanyons]

Normal 2" lift with KDSS

This thread is specifically about the Metaltech rear long travel setup. Unless you're planning on going that route (most don't) you can easily lift a TE with KDSS without any issues.

I agree, the thread by eddiebx says you can easily lift a TE with KDSS. I don't know from personal experience, only from reading here on the forum. I hope to lift a TE with KDSS by 2" to 2&1/2", much like the TRD Pro T4R but with better link arms and a new front UCA. I believe that's a normal, extended lift, not long travel.

The thread by eddiebx starts off by saying the installation methods apply to any type of suspension lift kit. In step 6 of the first post he says he is not talking about long travel rear suspension, but it can be done using the same methods with more hard physical work required.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/154230-how-lift-installation-kdss-equipped-vehicles.html

 

[Jetboy]

Along this topic - there are lots of options for aftermarket sway bars. Any reason that one of them can't be used in place of the rear in a KDSS long travel? It seems like the interference issue is with the driver's side rear right?

Using a different sway bar in place of the factor one should be pretty easy to work around that issue by using a wide enough setup so that the links clear to the outside. The horizontal bar should be easy enough to fit with new bushings in the factory KDSS mounts, and new tabs would need to be welded to the frame. The curry antirock setup for example comes in a variety of widths.

The biggest issue I see is clearing the spare tire.

 

[wfo9]

Along this topic - there are lots of options for aftermarket sway bars. Any reason that one of them can't be used in place of the rear in a KDSS long travel? It seems like the interference issue is with the driver's side rear right?

Using a different sway bar in place of the factor one should be pretty easy to work around that issue by using a wide enough setup so that the links clear to the outside. The horizontal bar should be easy enough to fit with new bushings in the factory KDSS mounts, and new tabs would need to be welded to the frame. The curry antirock setup for example comes in a variety of widths.

The biggest issue I see is clearing the spare tire.

Yep, totally doable if you remove the spare. Think all-pro has a kit for the FJ. Requires tabs to be welded on the axle. Not sure if the frame mounts would work on a 5th gen, but it would be easy to tap or weld.
https://www.allprooffroad.com/fjrearsuspension/fjc-rear-swaybar

 

[wfo9]

Strip it all away and it comes down to the skill of the driver. You guys (every single one of you on this page at least) know that a modded out rig in the hands of an amateur won't go anywhere close to a stock vehicle in the hands of a seasoned pro.

I see your point, but I still think it is bit of a misleading statement. A driver cannot overcome all limitations of a 4 wheel vehicle. It's just not physically possible. You can't cheat physics. Yes, there are some creative lines a skilled driver can pick... but the limitations of the vehicle quickly come into play on extremely difficult trails. I usually assume most people have some level of experience. I have some friends that do mind blowing stuff that I could never pull off even if I was in their rig, but there is no way in hell they could do the same stuff in my truck. It just can't physically do it (even If I was willing to turn it into a raisin).

The 4runner has a lot of things going against it from the factory for hard core off-roading. It's probably smarter to keep it mostly stock and keep it doing the stuff is was designed for (light off-road trails), but that is just so very boring and against that voice in my head that I have been listening to for as long as I can remember. :rockon:

 

[wfo9]

Front and rear LT will make for a trailer queen with impressive off road skills or a hwy accident waiting to happen.

Agree, no sway bars is a bit sketchy on the road.

You can still run a sway-bar with LT. It's nothing more than longer travel shocks in the rear. Same with front, but that might require a custom sway...

Disconnect/remove at the trail a or not...

I run my rear sway bar (extended links...) with the LT and find it to be a great compromise... Still flexes pretty darn well off-road. It does better off-road without it, so I remove occasionally for dedicated trips. Unfortunately, KDSS complicates things quite a bit. It is a double edge sword if you want to modify heavily...

There is not one perfect setup for everyone. My main point in this thread was that the added capabilities surprised me compared to every other modification, which had results that I more or less expected.

 

[adam2562]

I think i read somewhere that a company was going to or did make a new panhard bar that has a bend in it so it clears the sway bars on the passenger side where they make contact. Is that something that's doable? Would it work?

 

[Jetboy]

I think i read somewhere that a company was going to or did make a new panhard bar that has a bend in it so it clears the sway bars on the passenger side where they make contact. Is that something that's doable? Would it work?

I haven't seen one, but it could be done. Just by looking at it, I'd still go with a different sway bar like the curry anti-rock and keep the full KDSS system. The curry bar would be mountable in the KDSS brackets and be completely functional as KDSS and allow for long travel without interference. The factory bar used with KDSS is a big limitation because it lacks links that allow for greater range of travel.

 

[wfo9]

I haven't seen one, but it could be done. Just by looking at it, I'd still go with a different sway bar like the curry anti-rock and keep the full KDSS system. The curry bar would be mountable in the KDSS brackets and be completely functional as KDSS and allow for long travel without interference. The factory bar used with KDSS is a big limitation because it lacks links that allow for greater range of travel.

Yea, the only way to run a sway bar with Long travel (non-kdss) is extended links. Without extending it, the swaybar itself would limit vertical down travel.

The equation is quite complicated (even on a non-KDSS).... by extending the links you have the potential for contact with the lower control arms, but extended bump stop eliminate this. Extended bump stop are necessary any way with several of the shocks due to packaging (max compressed length).... In the end, you are sacrificing up/compressed travel for down travel with most shocks. Down travel really provides no major benifiton trails though. It's mainly useful at speed... An added benefit of the extended bump stops is improved departure angles in many climbing situations. My orginal LT setup ($400) had no extended bump stops (when I was running the cheap procomp shocks) and my bumper was dragging pretty bad in several situations.

 

[Orlyg1521]

MT system

This is info from MT's build of their 2011 4runner TE, maybe this might shed some light on their thought process, I'm very happy with it:

Late 2010 we came up with the long travel rear set up that is found on our FJ Cruiser and is now installed on our 4Runner. It gives the same amount of travel as the TC 2" LT kit, which is ~11" of travel. Now we can easily drive down a desert road at 50+ mph and both ends are floating through all the bumps with zero issues. It also keeps our FJC firmly planted on the ground when attempting difficult trails.

As for the reason why we are adding the spindle gussets and cam tabs is because the factory parts are too weak for hard abuse. The factory cam tabs have a small little ear that keeps the tab in place and under enough stress the ears will fold flat which will knock your alignment out every time you go wheeling. For the spindle they pretty much bend if you sneeze at them. We have gone through 3 spindles two of them even had the old style spindle gussets from TC, we started separating the gusset material from so much stress.

For suspension we chose to work with Radflo for our 4Runner because we believe they make a great product for a good price. Glen has been in the business for over 20 years and he manufacturers everything in house. We worked with him to develop shocks for the FZJ80 and 100 series Land Cruiser and now for the 4Runner. We will be rounding out the Radflo line on our website so we can offer complete suspension kits for the 4th and 5th Gen 4Runner and FJ Cruiser. We are in the process of having rear springs made for us to bundle with the Radflo suspension products. We are also developing a complete aftermarket link system that is going to allow maximum travel out of the axle before the links contact the axle housing. Dual shocks of course! The dual mount kit from TC is already on the truck. The custom built and valved Radflos are on deck as well. Remote res. front coil over and remote res. secondary for the front. The rear is matched to our rear long travel kit and also remote res. No KDSS on our 4Runner. It was something that we did not want and it wouldn't work so well with a Total Chaos Long Travel kit or our Long Travel rear kit

 

[Jetboy]

This is pretty much where I'd go. Should clear everything, easy to keeps KDSS for on-road handling, but does likely require moving the spare tire up to the rear bumper. Of course it's not bolt on, but then again it's probably a lot easier than building a hidden winch mount or a set of sliders, and most of us have those.

 

[st8rocks]

I think i read somewhere that a company was going to or did make a new panhard bar that has a bend in it so it clears the sway bars on the passenger side where they make contact. Is that something that's doable? Would it work?

This showed up at the office today.