Looking for a new pistol

[bofa]

I understand what you're saying...i just hate new things! (I also got burned badly with being one of the first owner of Sig P290!)

The above quoted statement is true...and i am going to take it OUT OF CONTEXT...so bare with me.

For me as a CCW holder, if i do draw my gun (from my hip IWB holster), then i am going to use it to defend myself...not to scare. Now, in all likelihood, this will ONLY happen if something dangerous is coming at me at very close distance...or something horrific is happening right in front of me. (Note, i am no cop.) So, with that in mind, my first shot will be at (very) close range. I will NOT have time to aim...it won't be needed. Remember, this is a desparation attempt to defend me and my family. THIS is why i am perfectly OK with a DA (double action) trigger. Obviously, afterwards, the SA will help with follow-up shots (if needed).

In other words, IF you have the time to aim (or need to) on your first shot, then IMHO, you should NOT be drawing your weapon out in the first place. I would not think that a juror will see that as defending yourself from imminent danger. Again, i understand that many folks have been judged innocently for these similar actions. I applaud these folks. HOWEVER, this is an area that can be very "grey" in many cases and to the juror...and laws may not protect you in such circumstances if evidence leans away from you (for any reason).

Again, you guys know that i am an NRA member and gun supporter. Just stating what i think.

If you aren't aiming you might as well be unarmed, because you probably won't hit anything unless you are within 3-5ft of your target. Then you open yourself to the liability of hitting an unintended target. I agree with not pulling unless you intend to fire, but you better be darn sure you are pointing it at your intended target. If you are intent on shooting without using sights, I hope you practice that way... a lot.

My theory is always aim, and practice aiming at small targets within a larger mass. This way, even if you miss a little, you are still hitting mass. I don't want to be cliche and quote a movie, but "aim small, miss small" has some merit to it.

This isn't to say aim like you would with a hunting rifle, but it shouldn't be too tedious to line up sights on a pistol

 

[aha2988]

a small probably widely known trick I've found in quick draw aiming practice..

When you draw the weapon as we all know you don't put your finger on the trigger until your pointed at your intended target and with most of the semi auto pistols you have an area below the slide just above the trigger that you rest your trigger finger on.

I've found that if I rest that trigger finger in the right spot upon drawing the fire arm that my trigger finger is in fact pointing at what the sights are aimed at. In my practices I've tried to make this a muscle memory to draw, pointing the rested finger at my target, then moving to line up sights, while transferring my pointed triger finger, to the trigger. 8 out of 10 times I can hit a coke can at 30 yards on the first squeeze within seconds of drawing the pistol. I figure thats pretty good odds of hitting my intended target at a closer range.

 

[Thai]

If you aren't aiming you might as well be unarmed, because you probably won't hit anything unless you are within 3-5ft of your target.

Of course, i will point in the right direction! Come on! I can easily hit the side of a barn within 5 ft of it.

But, it is true. In my mind, the only time that i would pull my gun from my hip is to defend myself from imminent danger...very close distance. 3-5 ft is probably within that scope.

(NOTE: i am not talking about home defense. I am ONLY talking about walking in the streets and having a threat come at you unsuspectingly.)

And yes, i do train shooting at targets...the same target that CCW and police train on. And i am accurate...easily on par with what police requires from their cops. So, don't take my post to mean that i am not accurate with my P239...i am pretty decent.

 

[SV_Dude]

I have pretty much decided that I'm getting the xdm comp series.

Now back to the new topic... I shoot somewhat regularly. In my mind, IF you are going to carry a gun you better be proficient with it. Whatever gun you are comfortable with doesn't matter, as long as you're comfortable with it. If you are going to carry you should practice drawing from a few different positions (kneeling, standing, sitting and laying down). Once you get comfortable drawing your gun you need to get into the muscle memory of taking the safety off while you punch the gun out in front of you and start acquiring your target on your front sight post ALL at the same time. You should never assume that you will only shoot someone from up close.

As for carrying in a truck, how easy is it to draw a pistol while buckled into your seat? It's much easier to grab a gun that's stuffed between two seats or from a holster that's attached to the front of your seat. I never leave a gun in my truck (unlocked) if I'm not in the truck and I usually only carry in my truck if I'm going on a longer trip.

 

[Thai]

You guys are missing my point. My point is that aiming in a close encounter is lesser important. And a close encounter is probably the ONLY time that i would draw my gun out. If you have the time to set your sights on a target and aim for the heart (or head as is the case for zombies), then you probably should not be drawing in the first place (unless for zombies).

EDIT: Yeah, we have all been taught to aim for center mass...and that is what i would expect myself to do. And, at least for me, aiming for center mass doesn't require much effort.

Conclusion...the ONLY time that i would draw my gun is to defend myself and family from imminent danger...and that would mean danger that is within very close distance. And yes, i do practice shooting beyond 3 ft!

 

[SV_Dude]

You guys are missing my point. My point is that aiming in a close encounter is lesser important. And a close encounter is probably the ONLY time that i would draw my gun out. If you have the time to set your sights on a target and aim for the heart or center mass (or head as is the case for zombies), then you probably should not be drawing in the first place (unless for zombies).

I can't tell you how much I disagree with you in this case. Look at recent events. Colorado theater shooting for example: if you were 40 feet from the shooter in the theater would you have just laid down and tried to hide or would you try to quickly draw, aim and return fire? Same goes with the shooting in Connecticut and most home invasions. I know that if someone kicked down the door in my house ill be damned if I wait till they get within 5 feet before I give them lead positioning.

 

[bofa]

You guys are missing my point. My point is that aiming in a close encounter is lesser important. And a close encounter is probably the ONLY time that i would draw my gun out. If you have the time to set your sights on a target and aim for the heart (or head as is the case for zombies), then you probably should not be drawing in the first place (unless for zombies).

EDIT: Yeah, we have all been taught to aim for center mass...and that is what i would expect myself to do. And, at least for me, aiming for center mass doesn't require much effort.

Conclusion...the ONLY time that i would draw my gun is to defend myself and family from imminent danger...and that would mean danger that is within very close distance. And yes, i do practice shooting beyond 3 ft!

That seems a bit too idealistic. There are many scenarios in which you may need to defend yourself from more than 3-5ft. I would hope you are practicing and proficient at least up to 100ft with a pistol. I'm not saying you have to take a leg off a tick from that distance but you should be able to hit a target.

 

[Thai]

I can't tell you how much I disagree with you in this case. Look at recent events. Colorado theater shooting for example: if you were 40 feet from the shooter in the theater would you have just laid down and tried to hide or would you try to quickly draw, aim and return fire? Same goes with the shooting in Connecticut and most home invasions. I know that if someone kicked down the door in my house ill be damned if I wait till they get within 5 feet before I give them lead positioning.

Note my exception above regarding home invasion. In addition, i have edited my previous post.

I don't know what i would have done in the CO shooting. 40 ft away in a crowded theater with people flying everywhere...probably NOT a good time to shoot anyone from that distance!! In fact, you're crazy to do so IMHO. My guess is that if i am that far away, i would try to escape, but with my hand on my gun as a last resort if he got close to me. Hell no, will i attempt a shot 40 ft away with people panicking around me! THAT is asking for trouble.

Again, i can't emphasize this enough...i am NOT a cop nor SWAT nor SEAL nor air marshall. My whole point of CCW is to protect me and my family from imminent danger from evildoers. Nothing more, nothing less. My weapon is not to protect other innocent civilian...unless there is imminent danger on THAT civilian and it is happening right in front of me with no other option. That is the damn honest truth from me. Sorry, i am a selfish person in that regard.

 

[Thai]

That seems a bit too idealistic. There are many scenarios in which you may need to defend yourself from more than 3-5ft. I would hope you are practicing and proficient at least up to 100ft with a pistol. I'm not saying you have to take a leg off a tick from that distance but you should be able to hit a target.

I can say with some certainty that i would NEVER attempt to shoot anyone beyond 50 ft. Yes, i can hit center mass easily at 50 ft. I can hit head and heart at 25 ft. without much effort. I don't train for 100 ft. Sorry. I train at being very good at close distance...very good with my P239.

 

[SV_Dude]

Note my exception above regarding home invasion. In addition, i have edited my previous post.

I don't know what i would have done in the CO shooting. 40 ft away in a crowded theater with people flying everywhere...probably NOT a good time to shoot anyone from that distance!! In fact, you're crazy to do so IMHO. My guess is that if i am that far away, i would try to escape, but with my hand on my gun as a last resort if he got close to me. Hell no, will i attempt a shot 40 ft away with people panicking around me! THAT is asking for trouble.

Again, i can't emphasize this enough...i am NOT a cop nor SWAT nor SEAL nor air marshall. My whole point of CCW is to protect me and my family from imminent danger from evildoers. Nothing more, nothing less. My weapon is not to protect other innocent civilian...unless there is imminent danger on THAT civilian and it is happening right in front of me with no other option. That is the damn honest truth from me. Sorry, i am a selfish person in that regard.

I can respect your intent with concealed carry and cannot argue that. My only point was to not be closed minded in the sense that if you ever have to draw your gun, it will be in your ideal scenario.

I'm not a seal, cop, swat, door kicker, bad @$$, or any other labeled trained killer. But I do (maybe from my military background) think that if you carry that you have to be ready for any event and train yourself to do so. In my opinion, I have a responsibility to help those around me if they are in danger. Again that may be due to my background but the helpful should be willing to help the helpless if they are in danger.

 

[bofa]

Note my exception above regarding home invasion. In addition, i have edited my previous post.

I don't know what i would have done in the CO shooting. 40 ft away in a crowded theater with people flying everywhere...probably NOT a good time to shoot anyone from that distance!! In fact, you're crazy to do so IMHO. My guess is that if i am that far away, i would try to escape, but with my hand on my gun as a last resort if he got close to me. Hell no, will i attempt a shot 40 ft away with people panicking around me! THAT is asking for trouble.

Again, i can't emphasize this enough...i am NOT a cop nor SWAT nor SEAL nor air marshall. My whole point of CCW is to protect me and my family from imminent danger from evildoers. Nothing more, nothing less. My weapon is not to protect other innocent civilian...unless there is imminent danger on THAT civilian and it is happening right in front of me with no other option. That is the damn honest truth from me. Sorry, i am a selfish person in that regard.

Unfortunately, I'm the type of person that would have gone toward the shooter, and my wife knows that which I think it part of the reason she's been reluctant to return to theaters since last year. I don't think that reluctance will improve once we get to Castle Rock either... hah.

 

[SV_Dude]

Unfortunately, I'm the type of person that would have gone toward the shooter, and my wife knows that which I think it part of the reason she's been reluctant to return to theaters since last year. I don't think that reluctance will improve once we get to Castle Rock either... hah.

I would like to think I would do the same thing. Hit me up when you come to castle rock, I'll buy you a beer and show you some good trails in the area.

 

[Thai]

Told ya i was a chickensh!t!!

 

[bofa]

I would like to think I would do the same thing. Hit me up when you come to castle rock, I'll buy you a beer and show you some good trails in the area.

Sounds like a plan - we can't wait to get there and get settled in!

 

[SV_Dude]

Sounds like a plan - we can't wait to get there and get settled in!

When are you coming?

 

[bofa]

When are you coming?

We will be there in about 5 weeks (June 16th is our planned arrival date).

 

[Thai]

Unfortunately, I'm the type of person that would have gone toward the shooter, and my wife knows that which I think it part of the reason she's been reluctant to return to theaters since last year. I don't think that reluctance will improve once we get to Castle Rock either... hah.

Well, that is an interesting perspective. Ok, so, you go toward him with your gun raised (and aimed). A few things:

1. IF you were to hit a bystander, then would your actions be defendable at all in court? No. You're screwed to no end.

2. With now two gunners in the theater (you and attacker), how do you know if another CCW guy will aim at you thinking that you're also the attacker/terrorist?

How will the local theater/mall cop react in seeing two gunners?? Remember, this is a DARK place with people running around...aka mass confusion.

For all i know, i see shots fired in the dark...and see two gunners...how does anyone know who is the good guy or bad guy??

3. Raising up also makes you an easier target by the attacker...which in this CO case is heavily armed vs. your carry pistol.

Sincerely, in SV_Dude scenario (40 ft away etc.), i believe that taking actions like planned above by bofa and SV is a BAD idea for a civilian. Now, SV does have military training. I do not. bofa seems to be damn good with his guns. I am good with my P239, but probably not as good as bofa...esp. if he trains out to 100 ft!

 

[Thai]

One more point...lets say you are approaching the attacker...and you see another person shooting you (or raising a gun at you), what then?? What if that person is a CCW who thinks that you're one of the attackers? Are you then force to shoot that person too?

There are many more possible scenarios...way more bad scenarios than that ONE good scenario of you killing the attacker quickly with one shot.

Vegas would bet on the bad scenarios....

 

[bofa]

Well, that is an interesting perspective. Ok, so, you go toward him with your gun raised (and aimed). A few things:

1. IF you were to hit a bystander, then would your actions be defendable at all in court? No. You're screwed to no end.

2. With now two gunners in the theater (you and attacker), how do you know if another CCW guy will aim at you thinking that you're also the attacker/terrorist?

How will the local theater/mall cop react in seeing two gunners?? Remember, this is a DARK place with people running around...aka mass confusion.

For all i know, i see shots fired in the dark...and see two gunners...how does anyone know who is the good guy or bad guy??

3. Raising up also makes you an easier target by the attacker...which in this CO case is heavily armed vs. your carry pistol.

Sincerely, in SV_Dude scenario (40 ft away etc.), i believe that taking actions like planned above by bofa and SV is a BAD idea for a civilian. Now, SV does have military training. I do not. bofa seems to be damn good with his guns. I am good with my P239, but probably not as good as bofa...esp. if he trains out to 100 ft!

It's not a perfect scenario, but getting shot in a theater doesn't seem like a night on the town I would prefer either.

1. If a bystander was hit I would certainly open myself up to liability. Given the circumstance I would be surprised if there would be a criminal charge. But for the chance of saving lives, including my own or my family, it's a decision I would have to make and live with.

2. You don't and that is a chance you take, but a risk you have to accept if you choose to defend yourself with a firearm. Hopefully the other person isn't oblivious to what's going on.

2a. Mall and theater cops typically aren't armed (which is another problem), but they are typically trained to begin with verbal commands (as are LEOs), which I would obey. It's not ideal and there will always be a risk when using a gun for self defense... that pretty much exists in any public place.

2b. Hopefully this isn't something that turns into a long drawn out gun battle. In these situations, if you are armed, you do have a bit of an advantage because they aren't really expecting it. Ideally, you fire, they are down and you can "surrender" to law enforcement until it's sorted out.

3. I'm not going to stand up, wave, and introduce myself. Ideally you would find a way to stay low or flank.

I don't want to get too much into this because I sincerely hope it never happens and I don't want to appear to be an armchair hero or something. I just know it's not in me to let something like that continue if I have even a slim chance to stop it.

 

[bofa]

One more point...lets say you are approaching the attacker...and you see another person shooting you (or raising a gun at you), what then?? What if that person is a CCW who thinks that you're one of the attackers? Are you then force to shoot that person too?

There are many more possible scenarios...way more bad scenarios than that ONE good scenario of you killing the attacker quickly with one shot.

Vegas would bet on the bad scenarios....

I mentioned this in my other reply but before I saw this - again its a risk you take. If you carry a gun, it's entirely possible you could find yourself at the wrong end of good intentions. Hopefully the other armed person knows who they are shooting at before they draw. This is certainly something to consider before you decide to use your weapon.