Looking for old LBJ

[MStudt]

The only way this could really be stronger is if the cup came around the ball further, but that would restrict range of motion of the ball.

If you flip the cup over so the retaining clip is facing down that would eliminate the problem with them pulling apart. In theory the lip of the cup wouldn't allow for the uni-ball to pull out. It would only be able to pop out with down pressure.

I just don't know how I'd feel about having a suspension part that has welded cast on it. At least not on the front. I know welding on cast is fine if it's done the right way, but the welding it the wrong way will have them cracking in no time.

 

[D Farms]

i believe its a forged part not cast.

 

[SnowLizard]

For the record, I'd say the same thing about the race dezert pics. Their design actually looks worse than the stock design because it uses a welded bolt that is smaller than the stock ball stud, and the end of the pin sticks way down below the arm.

so your saying... if the race desert had a thicker bolt it would be acceptable?


another thought...
the stock lower arm has the 3 large rivets holding the lower arm (where the LBJ goes through)... replace that with a piece that can bolt in using those points, having a uniball on the end. replace stock ball joint, with 'thicker' bolt.

then replace uniball when needed, it shouldn't pull out of it's cup, the lower part is bolt in.. the only 'welding' would be initial setup on lower ball joint. easy enough...

that's what I picture.... could be done... could be wrong.

 

[Nelsonmd]

In terms of the shear/bending load on that post, thicker would be better, but as I said, I am not convinced that a uniball is any stronger than the stock LBJ if you don't change the loading geometry. It's still the ball being pulled out of the cup/race

Looking at that bolt, it looks like it's a grade 10 bolt (same gold color as grade 10's), in which case the tempering is ruined by the welding, making the weld point weak (they may have then tempered the entire thing, but I don't know; if they didn't that's a HUGE weakness)

The stock LBJ stud is short and thick, so yeah, it looks stronger than the race desert one.

 

[nevada]

If you flip the cup over so the retaining clip is facing down that would eliminate the problem with them pulling apart. In theory the lip of the cup wouldn't allow for the uni-ball to pull out. It would only be able to pop out with down pressure.

I just don't know how I'd feel about having a suspension part that has welded cast on it. At least not on the front. I know welding on cast is fine if it's done the right way, but the welding it the wrong way will have them cracking in no time.

as was said above, im pretty sure they are forged.

cast would never hold up, I doubt the manufacturer would take that liability to put a cast part in the first place.

forged can be welded, and is very strong.

 

[Twisted Sid]

I'm new to this generation of 4runners/tacomas so maybe I'm not seeing something that wont work but, why not copy the design total chaos made for the 89-95 4x4 pickups? 5th down TOTAL CHAOS FABRICATION

 

[lbhsbz]

Heim joints are not designed to carry their primary load in that direction...they are designed to accept a radial load. They won't last near as long as an OE joint

Edit: and why does everyone thing the OE LBJs are such junk? On a stock rig, they about never wear out. They break on lifted rigs. I have one with 240K on it with original joints and they're just fine. I've had about 4 of these (stock with mileage up to 380K on original joints and they were fine too. The OE parts are $80 each and consistently last well over 150K miles...there are certain things that can't really be improved upon. If you face a lifted rig and failures are a result of exceeding the articulation limit of the factory LBJ, that's one thing...but otherwise, just replace with OE and call it a day for the next 200K miles.

I'm in the chassis part business. I've dissected many brands of this LBJ. The OE is an excellent part. It uses a 2 piece solid Delrin liner and a mirror polished ball, factory greased and sealed. The ONLY way this joint can wear is if it becomes contaminated (boot fails) or if use exceeds the articulation limits of the part. I've seen nothing in the aftermarket that comes close to the quality of the OE part.

 

[Scramble]

Heim joints are not designed to carry their primary load in that direction...they are designed to accept a radial load. They won't last near as long as an OE joint

Edit: and why does everyone thing the OE LBJs are such junk? On a stock rig, they about never wear out. They break on lifted rigs. I have one with 240K on it with original joints and they're just fine. I've had about 4 of these (stock with mileage up to 380K on original joints and they were fine too. The OE parts are $80 each and consistently last well over 150K miles...there are certain things that can't really be improved upon. If you face a lifted rig and failures are a result of exceeding the articulation limit of the factory LBJ, that's one thing...but otherwise, just replace with OE and call it a day for the next 200K miles.

I'm in the chassis part business. I've dissected many brands of this LBJ. The OE is an excellent part. It uses a 2 piece solid Delrin liner and a mirror polished ball, factory greased and sealed. The ONLY way this joint can wear is if it becomes contaminated (boot fails) or if use exceeds the articulation limits of the part. I've seen nothing in the aftermarket that comes close to the quality of the OE part.

This is not true, the old OE design comes apart on stock rigs too. It's not an epidemic but is is worrisome like the pink milkshake. The new OE's are stronger than the ones that came on our trucks. My looked & felt fine but I decided to replace them after 154,000 miles & 15 years for piece of mind.

You are right though about the aftermarket LBJ's. They are crap & I can't believe people on this site actually buy them to save 20- 40 dollars when there are plenty of threads about Moogs failing after 2-3 months. Failure on the highway at 70mph is death. I hope they don't have family in the car with them.

 

[Z-4runner]

I'm willing to test these

I will let you know how they work out for me. I will be beating them at King of the Hammers this year. I am more than confident that they will hold up. If all goes as planned than I will require a return core and an undetermined price.

I'm failing to see the advantage of this... You still haven't changed the loading on the ball joint. The suspension is still pulling the ball out of the cup, same as the flawed OEM design. You would still be relying on the material of the uniball being just as strong as the OEM LBJ.

Every suspensions style is trying to pull apart, otherwise there would be no reason for bolts. Why the stock LBJ fails is because they put the stronger side on the wrong side. A uniball and ball joint both have to be inserted into their cup and then secured. The ball joint had some small flanges that they pressed to keep the ball joint in, and they put them on the side which sees the most load. The uniballl drops in and uses a snap ring to retain it. As long as the machined lip is in the direction that sees the most load, they will be more than strong enough. As far as strength, there is a reason that every desert race, crawler, sand car, etc. uses uniball instead of ball joints.

I'm new to this generation of 4runners/tacomas so maybe I'm not seeing something that wont work but, why not copy the design total chaos made for the 89-95 4x4 pickups? 5th down TOTAL CHAOS FABRICATION

This is basically that but on the 3rd Gen 4runner the steering arm is part of this assembly, which makes it more difficult and less cost efective to completely fabricate one from scratch.

Heim joints are not designed to carry their primary load in that direction...they are designed to accept a radial load. They won't last near as long as an OE joint

Edit: and why does everyone thing the OE LBJs are such junk? On a stock rig, they about never wear out. They break on lifted rigs. I have one with 240K on it with original joints and they're just fine. I've had about 4 of these (stock with mileage up to 380K on original joints and they were fine too. The OE parts are $80 each and consistently last well over 150K miles...there are certain things that can't really be improved upon. If you face a lifted rig and failures are a result of exceeding the articulation limit of the factory LBJ, that's one thing...but otherwise, just replace with OE and call it a day for the next 200K miles.

I'm in the chassis part business. I've dissected many brands of this LBJ. The OE is an excellent part. It uses a 2 piece solid Delrin liner and a mirror polished ball, factory greased and sealed. The ONLY way this joint can wear is if it becomes contaminated (boot fails) or if use exceeds the articulation limits of the part. I've seen nothing in the aftermarket that comes close to the quality of the OE part.

This is for an offroad rig. I have personally helped 2 4runners limp back to camp because of the ball joint ejecting itself out of the joint. I would not go through all of this work for a stock applicatiion, in which I agree the stock setup is more than enough. The whole point of off roading is to push the limits and the weak spot in the suspension is first the upper ball joint, limiting the range of motion, then the lower which ejects.


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I am just trying to improve upon what I believe to be a weak spot on these vehicles. depending on the use of your rig, it might not be for your. I do know that it cant be weaker than the stock option.

 

[lbhsbz]

It's not a weak link...it's a strong link that's ignored for ever because Toyota. Change them at reasonable intervals and there will be no problems. If we were dealing with GM trucks, we'd be lucky to get 75K out of ball joints

 

[Z-4runner]

It's not a weak link...it's a strong link that's ignored for ever because Toyota. Change them at reasonable intervals and there will be no problems. If we were dealing with GM trucks, we'd be lucky to get 75K out of ball joints

A strong link doesn't exploded itself apart. I've helped two rigs out on trails that had theirs fail, and with a quick Google search you'll find countless people driving on streets and trails with the same issue. I push my 4runner and would rather take some fire from some Internet fabbers than be on the trail broke down miles from camp saying well they said it would be fine. :thumb3: stock applications, I agree with you but I take my 4runner every and this is just peace of mind.

 

[cashmoney]

As cheap as they are I'd just keep a spare set in the back. They are the easiest ball joints in the world to replace. 4 bolts, 2 nuts, and a hammer. Simple.

 

[Z-4runner]

I think that the point a lot of people are missing is that this is purely for strength purposes. I understand that a ball joint is cheaper. I get that with proper preventative maintenance they will last forever. What I do know is the few hours I spent getting 1 guy about 3 miles in Johnson Valley and another friend of mine about 10 miles in Big Bear, with snow mud and cold because of course it was late afternoon when it broke and it went well into the night, all that was miserable. Not too mention the ripped brake lines, bent spindle, dented in passenger door...





This is the uniball set-up I will be going with. Well not this exact one but same idea. I am trying to keep the pin length the same which means machining .0625 off of the top side of the cup, which will still be plenty strong, to raise the center of pivot to the correct height. Also the flush uniball spacer on top with the drop in 12 point, also plenty strong, is key because with a bolt head sticking up as they usually do I believe it will hit the spindle in its range of travel. Also with the bolt not sticking up it would mean that this set-up could be used with 4wheel drive, I would believe (mines only 2 wheel drive so I cant check for clearance)

The draw back is that there are not any companies, that I can find, that sell this style misalignment. I went to Kartek and no luck so I suppose I will have to bore out a standard spacer. I guess its not to big of a deal since I already have to machine the lower to fit the taper. I would like to make this 100% bolt in, so no drilling of the lower arm. That will raise the cost slightly but make life somewhat easier.

 

[Red October]

:snacker:

Very interested to see how this works out. I think its a pretty cool idea.

As far as changing the ball joint loading that has been mentioned (and is the real weak link in this particular suspension design) That sounds like a huge, cost prohibitive, and potentially low return undertaking. That would require fabricated knuckles and LCA's and at that point why not just spend the money and go with a long travel setup while you're at it.

I think Z-4runner's solution is a great compromise between strengthening a known weakness on our trucks, and getting crazy and redesigning the whole damn front end.

 

[snivilous]

I think what [MENTION=56021]Nelsonmd[/MENTION] is saying is that due to the load direction on the uniball, this isn't really a long term fix. The uniball will eventually wear down just like a ball joint and be able to pop out. Obviously running a 1" uniball will be stronger than a 1/2" ball joint, but how will it hold up in 100k miles? For a stock replacement application there is more to think about than strength.

Again, I am not arguing the use of uniballs (I have four of them on my front suspension after all), but is this necessarily a better solution for the guy who commutes 50 miles a day and is 90% on the street? I'm interested to see how this turns out and what a cost analysis shows in the long run.

 

[Z-4runner]

I think what [MENTION=56021]Nelsonmd[/MENTION] is saying is that due to the load direction on the uniball, this isn't really a long term fix. The uniball will eventually wear down just like a ball joint and be able to pop out..

I've never seen a uniball pop out. No amount of abuse I could through at it would cause the chromoly lip of the cup to break, and by the time a uniball was worn enough (which is just the Teflon wearing away) to catastrophically fail that's on the driver to not recognize the joint is worn. If someone could please explain to me how a uniball will pull out the same way that a ball joint will. Or show me a picture of one that has failed like this. I've just never seen a uniball fail like that..

 

[lbhsbz]

I think that the point a lot of people are missing is that this is purely for strength purposes. I understand that a ball joint is cheaper. I get that with proper preventative maintenance they will last forever. What I do know is the few hours I spent getting 1 guy about 3 miles in Johnson Valley and another friend of mine about 10 miles in Big Bear, with snow mud and cold because of course it was late afternoon when it broke and it went well into the night, all that was miserable. Not too mention the ripped brake lines, bent spindle, dented in passenger door...











This is the uniball set-up I will be going with. Well not this exact one but same idea. I am trying to keep the pin length the same which means machining .0625 off of the top side of the cup, which will still be plenty strong, to raise the center of pivot to the correct height. Also the flush uniball spacer on top with the drop in 12 point, also plenty strong, is key because with a bolt head sticking up as they usually do I believe it will hit the spindle in its range of travel. Also with the bolt not sticking up it would mean that this set-up could be used with 4wheel drive, I would believe (mines only 2 wheel drive so I cant check for clearance)



The draw back is that there are not any companies, that I can find, that sell this style misalignment. I went to Kartek and no luck so I suppose I will have to bore out a standard spacer. I guess its not to big of a deal since I already have to machine the lower to fit the taper. I would like to make this 100% bolt in, so no drilling of the lower arm. That will raise the cost slightly but make life somewhat easier.

If you'd like to experiment...i have plenty of stock LBJs, and I have a machine shop in Long Beach...you're welcome to come over and we can build whatever you want. Bring beer

 

[snivilous]

I've never seen a uniball pop out. No amount of abuse I could through at it would cause the chromoly lip of the cup to break, and by the time a uniball was worn enough (which is just the Teflon wearing away) to catastrophically fail that's on the driver to not recognize the joint is worn. If someone could please explain to me how a uniball will pull out the same way that a ball joint will. Or show me a picture of one that has failed like this. I've just never seen a uniball fail like that..

I agree it's unlikely, I'm just playing devil's advocate since I've never seen a uniball after 100k miles and how it would compare to a ball joint after 100k miles.

 

[Z-4runner]

If you'd like to experiment...i have plenty of stock LBJs, and I have a machine shop in Long Beach...you're welcome to come over and we can build whatever you want. Bring beer

Thanks, I appreciate the offer but I have cnc abilities at work. Maybe if this ends up working out ill hand deliver it with a case of beer and see about taking some of those stock LBJs off your hands. :thumb3:

I agree it's unlikely, I'm just playing devil's advocate since I've never seen a uniball after 100k miles and how it would compare to a ball joint after 100k miles.

To be honest ive never seen a uniball at 100k either. Usually the cars im dealing with get the tar beat out of them racing so its hard to say what they will do in a stock applcation. I couldnt really say how long I think they will last, but one issue is that there is no ability to grease a uniball like there is a ball joint. My direction might change when I get the first set done, like using a ballistic fabrication uniball which has bronze inserts that are replaceable for a reasonable amount.



This is just a prototype, there may be better options or other directions to go that would work better. I have other ideas that would probably work better but require more fabricating, therefore driving up the time and cost. Ill know more this coming weekend when I rip the 4runner apart. I am also buidling rear links using ballistic fabrication hiem joints that I will most likely be offering as set.



Also an ARB locker and Old Man Emu 906 springs are sitting in the back just waiting, taunting me haha.

 

[Z-4runner]

Got the cup tacked in and initial mock-up to make sure everything is going to work like I had planned. So far so good. I just bolted it to the bottom of the spindle to see what my clearances look like for the upper misalignment.





Working on a few different options for adapting the uniball with the misalignment spacers. A bolt will come up from the bottom of the lower arm and thread into the upper misalignment. Still working out the kinks and kicking around other ideas but so far this is the best ive got.





Both of them will be machined with the taper to match the stock ball joint, making this a complete bolt in item. Work has been very busy so I dont have as much time as I had hoped to work on this project. Slowly but surely.