Measure / Adjust Camber and Caster at home ?

[DaMonkey]

Lasers are only as good as the operator.

My experience:
My truck originally drove and felt perfect, tires wear normal, front end is all super tight.

After install of 2" lift: Went to local dealer. They did toe only and let me know camber bolts were frozen, quoted minimum $400 maybe more to repair. I said I would put in a new camber bolts and be back. drove and felt great with only the toe, except I could feel lack of caster (+1.1° / +1.4°), but it drove buttery.

I wanted to get caster in spec, and get camber closer, so I installed new LCAs and new camber bolt kit. I tightened suspension bushings after jouncing on it's own weight. Went back to shop, they gave me credit for original toe-n-go. On way home with full alignment, it felt TERRIBLE. Felt like a load of caster and lopsided. What the heck. The report did not look bad.

Alignment report L/R:
Camber +0.0° / +0.1°
Caster +2.2° / +2.0°
Toe +0.12° / +0.13°

This is not what it felt like. I wanted to measure it.

So, I lasered garage floor and shimmed under tires with 1/8" thick squares of MDF so truck was perfectly level. I jounced and measured camber with digital level fixtured up on the rim lip. I measured L/R

Camber : -0.3° / +0.2°.

To measure caster, I swept exactly 1 turn of steering wheel left and 1 turn right. At one turn, wheels turn 19° as measured with long straight edges, so by my calculations, I should multiply the camber differences of sweeps by 1.6?

Caster results

Left : sweep L +1.2° camber, sweep R -1.2° camber; = 2.4° * 1.6 =
3.9° Left Caster

Right : sweep R +1.6° camber, sweep L -0.5° camber = 2.1 * 1.6 =
3.4° Right Caster

I pulled the truck out and back in, same results, it was repeatable.

Toe I did not measure, but with long straight edge, it looked pretty good, very slight toe in, just barely noticeable with 6 foot straight edge.

I think their measurements with their fancy lasers are off. My caster measured much bigger, but the difference between L/R seems to be directionally correct.

Does the 1.6 multiplier for the 1 turn caster sweep sound right?

The camber definitely seems whacky, and that's not hard to measure as long as truck is level left to right.

How much room for operator error on an alignment rack? I would say there is a higher probability that I'm the one that is wrong, except I am the one that will be driving it and paying for tires so I paid very close attention to the details. And also... it drives like hell after they did the alignment, so it seems wrong.

I know some of you will say take it to a reputable shop... the point of this post is that it IS a reputable shop. That's the point.

I think I'll iterate adjustments / measurements and align myself. Anyone have a chart of bolt rotation amounts and impact to alignment? Guide like this would help reduce number of iterations.

 

[Nate_GB]

I wanted to get caster in spec, and get camber closer, so I installed new LCAs and new camber bolt kit.

Oem control arms? Aftermarket arms/bushings are notorious for not holding alignment specs.

 

[DaMonkey]

Oem control arms? Aftermarket arms/bushings are notorious for not holding alignment specs.

They are Moog and they seem to be very good quality. Especially compared to whatever those other ones are that are out there, the build quality on those cheap ones looks terrible. Moog next to the OEM arms look great. I was perfectly happy putting those arms on and I took a real close look at them. I know that this board has a very big favor for always getting OEM parts, and I generally agree with that. But these arms look stout and the bushings were seated well and look great.

The camber bolts are Moog also, and the orb discs are the new generation thick ones, I think they had a problem with the old gen bolt kits that did not stay put.

There is a ton of junk out there. Some of the front end components I've seen out there for these trucks look terrible (and dangerous).

I'm open to the idea that the arms suck, but at this point I'm not convinced that's the problem. It drove terrible right out of the door, and the camber bolts are tight, I checked that. They are in the same position as when I left the shop, I left the skid plate off for their access when I went and first thing I did was look at the new position before I drove it. I was impressed with this Moog stuff. But that's good input, and something to consider - thx.

 

[Nate_GB]

They are Moog and they seem to be very good quality. Especially compared to whatever those other ones are that are out there, the build quality on those cheap ones looks terrible. Moog next to the OEM arms look great. I was perfectly happy putting those arms on and I took a real close look at them. I know that this board has a very big favor for always getting OEM parts, and I generally agree with that. But these arms look stout and the bushings were seated well and look great.

The camber bolts are Moog also, and the orb discs are the new generation thick ones, I think they had a problem with the old gen bolt kits that did not stay put.

There is a ton of junk out there. Some of the front end components I've seen out there for these trucks look terrible (and dangerous).

I'm open to the idea that the arms suck, but at this point I'm not convinced that's the problem. It drove terrible right out of the door, and the camber bolts are tight, I checked that. They are in the same position as when I left the shop, I left the skid plate off for their access when I went and first thing I did was look at the new position before I drove it. I was impressed with this Moog stuff. But that's good input, and something to consider - thx.

I definitely am not suggesting you throw the arms out and buy Oem. I've never had personal experience with faulty a/m arms/bushings either. But I have seen multiple alignment issues on other peoples' trucks and they usually center around a/m components. I'm all for a well designed a/m component. The problem is that you won't be able to "see" anything wrong with a control arm bushing that is wiggling in its sleeve while it's on the truck or a bushing that is flexing in a way it shouldn't. Alignments usually come with a warranty for 6 or 12 months. I'd start by taking it back and telling them it drives funny. Have them throw it on the rack and see what the initial specs are. If it's different from the final specs from your last alignment, I think you have a pretty good idea that something else is worn and needs replacing, or, in my opinion, that would indicate a faulty a/m part. Good luck pinning it down. Let us know when you get it figured out.

 

[DaMonkey]

I definitely am not suggesting you throw the arms out and buy Oem. I've never had personal experience with faulty a/m arms/bushings either. But I have seen multiple alignment issues on other peoples' trucks and they usually center around a/m components. I'm all for a well designed a/m component. The problem is that you won't be able to "see" anything wrong with a control arm bushing that is wiggling in its sleeve while it's on the truck or a bushing that is flexing in a way it shouldn't. Alignments usually come with a warranty for 6 or 12 months. I'd start by taking it back and telling them it drives funny. Have them throw it on the rack and see what the initial specs are. If it's different from the final specs from your last alignment, I think you have a pretty good idea that something else is worn and needs replacing, or, in my opinion, that would indicate a faulty a/m part. Good luck pinning it down. Let us know when you get it figured out.

Eeeesh... very good points. I've got a couple errands tomorrow, I'll put some miles on and see if these measurements are still repeatable. But they were exact when I did them twice. As soon as that happened, I suspected something was not right with how they did it. I'll keep posted.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Lasers are only as good as the operator.

My experience:
My truck originally drove and felt perfect, tires wear normal, front end is all super tight.

After install of 2" lift: Went to local dealer. They did toe only and let me know camber bolts were frozen, quoted minimum $400 maybe more to repair. I said I would put in a new camber bolts and be back. drove and felt great with only the toe, except I could feel lack of caster (+1.1° / +1.4°), but it drove buttery.

I wanted to get caster in spec, and get camber closer, so I installed new LCAs and new camber bolt kit. I tightened suspension bushings after jouncing on it's own weight. Went back to shop, they gave me credit for original toe-n-go. On way home with full alignment, it felt TERRIBLE. Felt like a load of caster and lopsided. What the heck. The report did not look bad.

Alignment report L/R:
Camber +0.0° / +0.1°
Caster +2.2° / +2.0°
Toe +0.12° / +0.13°

This is not what it felt like. I wanted to measure it.

So, I lasered garage floor and shimmed under tires with 1/8" thick squares of MDF so truck was perfectly level. I jounced and measured camber with digital level fixtured up on the rim lip. I measured L/R

Camber : -0.3° / +0.2°.

To measure caster, I swept exactly 1 turn of steering wheel left and 1 turn right. At one turn, wheels turn 19° as measured with long straight edges, so by my calculations, I should multiply the camber differences of sweeps by 1.6?

Caster results

Left : sweep L +1.2° camber, sweep R -1.2° camber; = 2.4° * 1.6 =
3.9° Left Caster

Right : sweep R +1.6° camber, sweep L -0.5° camber = 2.1 * 1.6 =
3.4° Right Caster

I pulled the truck out and back in, same results, it was repeatable.

Toe I did not measure, but with long straight edge, it looked pretty good, very slight toe in, just barely noticeable with 6 foot straight edge.

I think their measurements with their fancy lasers are off. My caster measured much bigger, but the difference between L/R seems to be directionally correct.

Does the 1.6 multiplier for the 1 turn caster sweep sound right?

The camber definitely seems whacky, and that's not hard to measure as long as truck is level left to right.

How much room for operator error on an alignment rack? I would say there is a higher probability that I'm the one that is wrong, except I am the one that will be driving it and paying for tires so I paid very close attention to the details. And also... it drives like hell after they did the alignment, so it seems wrong.

I know some of you will say take it to a reputable shop... the point of this post is that it IS a reputable shop. That's the point.

I think I'll iterate adjustments / measurements and align myself. Anyone have a chart of bolt rotation amounts and impact to alignment? Guide like this would help reduce number of iterations.

Several things here.

You're caster measurement does seem somewhat large. Caster is lost as our trucks are lifted. The readings first recorded by the shop are probably not far off. With that kind of lift I would suspect you would only be able to get 2 degrees max caster.

If your truck drives like crap and is a camber issue you would be able to eye ball it. Yours is on the positive side according to the last readings and I believe that is the top end of the camber spec and it is preferable to have a slightly negative camber setting. Your readings would not make the truck drive like shit though.

There's been quite a few posts about the MOOG lower control arms not holding up so don't rule them out. Did you replace the LBJs also?

Not sure what kind of alignment machine your shop is using but if it is a "laser" unit, which are actually LEDs, then that kind of alignment machine is very outdated and very susceptible to errors and bad readings. Look for a shop that has a newer camera style unit. It has "targets" that mount on the wheel which are usually black and white reflective triangles (Hunter unit) or circles (John Bean unit)

Here's a chart that shows the relationship between the LCA eccentric position and caster and camber. It's a little hard to grasp at first but once you see the way things move when they turn it should make more sense. One thing I might suggest is to make sure your eccentrics are mirroring each other. To illustrate the "circles" at the zero position should be in the same position like if you are looking at it from the front the "circles" would be in the same but mirrored position (ie 10 o'clock/ 2 o'clock, 9 o'clock/ 3 o'clock etc). Make sure the circle isn't below 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock and the tabs on either side are not flattened out.

 

[DaMonkey]

...Did you replace the LBJs also?...

Yes, w Moog

...Not sure what kind of alignment machine your shop is using but if it is a "laser" unit... very outdated and very susceptible to errors and bad readings...

I blurted out laser. Printout is Hunter Hawkeye.

...Here's a chart that shows the relationship between the LCA eccentric position and caster and camber...

Exactly what I wanted, thanks.

...One thing I might suggest is to make sure your eccentrics are mirroring each other...
Make sure the circle isn't below 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock...
and the tabs on either side are not flattened out.

Yes yes yes.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Question: if toe is good and camber is close, like I believe it is, but caster is heavy and lopsided, what's that mean for tyre wear?

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

Yes, w Moog



I blurted out laser. Printout is Hunter Hawkeye.



Exactly what I wanted, thanks.



Yes yes yes.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Question: if toe is good and camber is close, like I believe it is, but caster is heavy and lopsided, what's that mean for tyre wear?

MOOG LBJs can be a problem. It's pretty much a forum consensus to use OEM for these mission critical parts.

Caster is the least of the tire wearing angles. Caster really only wears tires while turning if there is a difference from side to side. I assume that's what you mean by lopsided? If any of the angles are off or a big enough difference side to side you'll have a pull. A vehicle will pull to the side with more positive camber. It will also pull to the side with more negative caster. Of course, you could have one bad angle "fighting" against another bad angle. Of course toe will also pull. Make sure your alignment guy sets caster/camber first THEN toe last. I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys go right for the toe and I immediately say something. I hate being like that but between alignment angles and AC refrigerant systems, there's a lot of amateurs out there.

PS: Also keep in mind that with a lift those eccentric positions wont give you those caster/camber reading. Obviously, you still want the same factory settings though. I would think that with only a 2" lift you could get everything in spec (2+ degrees caster with a little bit of negative camber - around .1 to .2) and you should be fine. Lastly, You want to make sure the difference side to side is not more than .5 degrees.

 

[DaMonkey]

Thx.

I just drove around town and intentionally was hard on the front end to see if it would slip.

Got home, eccentrics are in exact same spots, and my angle measurements are *exactly* as they were yesterday. I think he prob set up the fixture wrong.

Whole reason I learned about how to measure and adjust is because my 61 pontiac had wheels that shop fixture would not fit properly on and tech didn't realize or care that the fixture was screwball until I pointed it out because he tried to tell me I had a bent frame and that's why he couldn't get it in spec. I aligned it at home after studying it, and when I found another shop that had equipment that fits, my alignment was nuts on.

I'll report back after I make adjustments. I just have to do some brainpower to convert that chart into fractional inches because my eccentrics do not have hashes on them. I'll drop a floss plumb from the zerks on the new bolts and measure with calipers against the frame how much I move it.

 

[DaMonkey]

I made adjustments to camber bolts. Truck went super toe, so I eye balled those back in place so toe-in was just barely visually seen with 6 foot straight edge.

Went for a drive and the difference was night and day. Felt like I got my truck back.

I measured:

Camber: -0.5° / -0.5° (oops)
Caster: +2.5° / +2.5°

I shouldn't have to get back under to adjust camber. I called the shop and asked for a senior tech to re-adjust, I'll take it back in later and also ask them to clean the grease on my seat they left. My son works for the company and he explained to me today that they will pull in a newb to do oil changes or alignments, but they have very good senior techs.

Worst alignment I've ever had in my life. I used caveman tools to fix it one try and got it to drive SO much better.

 

[DaMonkey]

FWIW - one thing I noticed with the 'lopsided' caster, was that the steering wheel aligned perfect with tires straight when parked, but on the right side road crown \ the steering wheel slightly pointed left and on the left side crown / the steering wheel point way far left.

 

[DaMonkey]

Here's the technique I used to measure how much I moved bolt in or out, worked great, just measured w calipers off the plate next to it.

My estimates:

front or rear bolt only in or out adjusts caster about 1° for every 0.660"
or to adjust without changing camber: rear out 0.330" and front in 0.330" will adjust caster about 1° and keep camber about the same.

both bolts in or out same direction adjust camber about 1.0° for every .330"

 

[pauldub]

For caster measurement, I measure the angle at 20 degrees left and right then multiply the difference by 1.5. Make sure your angle measuring devise is plumb when making measurements. I think that if you don't sent your measuring devise plumb but have it attached so its position to the hub is constant, you'll be measuring SAI or Included Angle. Still practicing my alignment skills.

 

[DaMonkey]

For caster measurement, I measure the angle at 20 degrees left and right then multiply the difference by 1.5. Make sure your angle measuring devise is plumb when making measurements. I think that if you don't sent your measuring devise plumb but have it attached so its position to the hub is constant, you'll be measuring SAI or Included Angle. Still practicing my alignment skills.

Yes I agree. But left be right is more important than absolute for me. For instance .... I’m far more converned that left is same as right rather than knowing if the absolute caster is .1 or even .3 different than actual. If we use same technique left v right is most important so we know balance. If caster feels too heavy or light then adjust it, but keep measurement technique consistent on each side.

‘Spec’ caster might be best to sell cars with oem tires but it really needs to fit what we like, our driving needs, and not chew up tires if we get bigger tires.

I guess thats my way of saying who cares about including SAI on the sweep if you do it same each side.

 

[DaMonkey]

I ended up fixing the camber on my own before the weekend because I had to take a road trip this weekend, and the 'senior tech' was on vacation last week which was the reason he didn't do the alignment originally.

So I set camber to vertical, set toe to 1/16" in, and matched caster left and right to what I thought was 3.0°, but most important, same left and right.

It drove beautifully for several hundred miles. Loved it.

Went back on the rack today, and they did not have to adjust anything. My alignment that I did:

Camber: 0.0° / 0.0°
Caster: 2.7° / 2.7°
Toe: 0.07° / 0.08°.

It took a lot of time and effort and study to get this straight, but mostly irritating knowing that they were willing to send someone home so far out of alignment. They think it fell out of whack after it left the shop, but I felt it bad in their parking lot.

Good news is I'm on my way...

 

[zoombyu86]

Most shops give you a time period after an alignment to check and fix anything. It may be worth having them verify it again just to bounce the numbers again but tell them not to adjust anything yet if they find something out.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

I ended up fixing the camber on my own before the weekend because I had to take a road trip this weekend, and the 'senior tech' was on vacation last week which was the reason he didn't do the alignment originally.



So I set camber to vertical, set toe to 1/16" in, and matched caster left and right to what I thought was 3.0°, but most important, same left and right.



It drove beautifully for several hundred miles. Loved it.



Went back on the rack today, and they did not have to adjust anything. My alignment that I did:



Camber: 0.0° / 0.0°

Caster: 2.7° / 2.7°

Toe: 0.07° / 0.08°.



It took a lot of time and effort and study to get this straight, but mostly irritating knowing that they were willing to send someone home so far out of alignment. They think it fell out of whack after it left the shop, but I felt it bad in their parking lot.



Good news is I'm on my way...

How about posting some pictures with comments or a video? I've only been half successful trying this at home.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DaMonkey]

How about posting some pictures with comments or a video? I've only been half successful trying this at home.

I'll prob do that in a couple weeks, I want to remeasure after some off road plans and see how it holds. I learned a few tricks about where the measurements are sensitive in order to gain repeatability and how to fixture for it. I used small bungees to strap a custom piece of aluminum angle iron from upper lip to lower lip. Sure, I'll follow up in here.