missing a diesel option

halfmonkey

New member
I think one of the things that would be nice is if Toyota put a diesel option in the 4runner. I know that Americans don't like diesels in general but I believe a diesel in the right application (i.e. suv's) would work wonders. ...and I'm not talking about a chumpy diesel with 180hp and 280 lb-ft torque. If Toyota is going to put a diesel in the 4runner, they need to put one that has something like 240hp and 370 lb-ft of torque. That would really persuade me to get a diesel but it doesn't seem like this will happen soon as Toyota are focusing on their green image with hybrids and plug-ins. Personally, I don't see how any of their trucks will really work with hybrids tech and it seems like a contradiction to put a hybrid engine (for fuel efficiency) in an inefficient true style suv (not a unibody suv).
 
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I doubt there will be any diesels here for a long time, especially in the 4Runner. I'd buy it, but I wouldn't hold my breath. You can thank California for the lack of diesels in America.
 
I think people would balk at the cost over the gasser and the fact that the 3.0L D-4D that is available in the Land Cruiser Prado only makes 190hp (it does make 300 lb-ft of torque). Toss in the complications that we're starting to see with current diesels in the US and things aren't looking good for a diesel 4runner.
 
We all know that the uptake on a diesel option will be very slim in the beginning just simply because Americans haven't bought into the idea of owning diesels, unlike the European counterparts. I believe in Europe, they sell a lot more diesels maybe even 1:1, diesel to gas if not more. They can't abandon the idea of a diesel because in the right application, it can make sense. Typically, in a truck, you'd want to buy a diesel and my post is simply referring to the trucks that Toyota/Lexus currently makes.

Considering that Toyota want to maximize their green image as much as possible, I don't see how selling a 5.7L v-8 that gets 12/18 mpg in the LX570 is green. Now if they put a diesel in there that maybe gets 17/24 mpg, that would be a lot better and when you also factor in the torque that an appropriate engine would produce for the LX570, it makes total sense.

I thought at one point, Toyota was talking about putting a diesel in their Tundra but maybe I'm wrong on that rumor. Still hoping that Toyota does it.
 
We all know that the uptake on a diesel option will be very slim in the beginning just simply because Americans haven't bought into the idea of owning diesels, unlike the European counterparts. I believe in Europe, they sell a lot more diesels maybe even 1:1, diesel to gas if not more. They can't abandon the idea of a diesel because in the right application, it can make sense. Typically, in a truck, you'd want to buy a diesel and my post is simply referring to the trucks that Toyota/Lexus currently makes.

Considering that Toyota want to maximize their green image as much as possible, I don't see how selling a 5.7L v-8 that gets 12/18 mpg in the LX570 is green. Now if they put a diesel in there that maybe gets 17/24 mpg, that would be a lot better and when you also factor in the torque that an appropriate engine would produce for the LX570, it makes total sense.

I thought at one point, Toyota was talking about putting a diesel in their Tundra but maybe I'm wrong on that rumor. Still hoping that Toyota does it.

Toyota is partnering with Ford for truck and SUV hybrids. I don't think either brand is considering diesels. Like I said above, getting a diesel to market is getting harder by the year.

Toyota, Ford to collaborate on hybrid trucks | Reuters

Then there is the NOx.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/diesel/4330313 said:
"The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29.

That is why I don't think diesels will ever come near the acceptance that they have in Europe.
 
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I think Toyota is partnering with Ford to get some of their diesel technology. The way I see it, Toyota has nothing to gain by partnering with Ford because they're the leader in hybrids right now. It's not like Ford is going to offer Toyota better hybrid tech or economies of scale because the prius is the best selling hybrid out there. I'm thinking they're giving Ford access to their hybrid tech and in turn, Ford will give Toyota access to their diesel tech.

Whether Toyota publicly admits it or not, they need a diesel, at least in their Tundra truck if they want to complete with Ford (#1 truck) or Chevy (#2). They need the diesel if they want a heavy duty version for real payloads and towing capacity. I know the Tundra does well in terms of payload and towing with the 5.7 but again, they will never be seen in the same light until they a get a diesel. ...and we all know that the F150 is Ford's bread and butter.
 
I think Toyota is partnering with Ford to get some of their diesel technology. The way I see it, Toyota has nothing to gain by partnering with Ford because they're the leader in hybrids right now. It's not like Ford is going to offer Toyota better hybrid tech or economies of scale because the prius is the best selling hybrid out there. I'm thinking they're giving Ford access to their hybrid tech and in turn, Ford will give Toyota access to their diesel tech.

Whether Toyota publicly admits it or not, they need a diesel, at least in their Tundra truck if they want to complete with Ford (#1 truck) or Chevy (#2). They need the diesel if they want a heavy duty version for real payloads and towing capacity. I know the Tundra does well in terms of payload and towing with the 5.7 but again, they will never be seen in the same light until they a get a diesel. ...and we all know that the F150 is Ford's bread and butter.

While there are a majority of people who want a diesel posting on the internet in forums, in real life the VAST majority of vehicle buyers DO NOT want diesel. Do you not think that Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota and everyone else would love to sell diesels in North America? Sure they would and they already have product they could use. Point is, there is absolutely no market here for light truck diesels beyond a small minority who would. Sure, the internet forums are full of these fans but it does not translate into real life.
 
While there are a majority of people who want a diesel posting on the internet in forums, in real life the VAST majority of vehicle buyers DO NOT want diesel. Do you not think that Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota and everyone else would love to sell diesels in North America? Sure they would and they already have product they could use. Point is, there is absolutely no market here for light truck diesels beyond a small minority who would. Sure, the internet forums are full of these fans but it does not translate into real life.

True. But the vast majority of the minority diesel buyers LOVE their diesels. It's not a technology issue, it's a perception problem that is, thankfully, starting to erode as more people realize today's diesels are not like the dirty ol' ones of the past. Who doesn't appreciate tons of torque at low rpm, while getting hybrid like economy — heck, some getting better than hybrid economy. Diesel choices are currently pretty small, but they're growing, despite Toyota's reluctance. And with a 54.5 mpg fleet economy average required by 2025, there will be more diesels offered. Let's hope the majority starts to see the benefit.
 
I think Toyota is partnering with Ford to get some of their diesel technology. The way I see it, Toyota has nothing to gain by partnering with Ford because they're the leader in hybrids right now. It's not like Ford is going to offer Toyota better hybrid tech or economies of scale because the prius is the best selling hybrid out there. I'm thinking they're giving Ford access to their hybrid tech and in turn, Ford will give Toyota access to their diesel tech.

Whether Toyota publicly admits it or not, they need a diesel, at least in their Tundra truck if they want to complete with Ford (#1 truck) or Chevy (#2). They need the diesel if they want a heavy duty version for real payloads and towing capacity. I know the Tundra does well in terms of payload and towing with the 5.7 but again, they will never be seen in the same light until they a get a diesel. ...and we all know that the F150 is Ford's bread and butter.

Toyota has loads to gain by joining Ford on this. Toyota has tons of experience in hybrids but they don't move enough trucks and SUVs to amortize the R&D cost of a light duty, low range capable, offroad capable 4WD hybrid drivetrain*. Ford sells 500,000 F series trucks per year. That gives Toyota a way to chop down on their R&D cost and also take a slice of profit from the Ford hybrid sales. Best yet, they get to bring the best hybrid tech to their smaller volume of trucks and SUVs. Without a partner, I don't think they'd be able to show a cost justification to do the drivetrain development and their truck/suv volume would fall even further behind. Ford's volume and OK experience in hybrids makes this a great partnership for both.

* The hybrid drivetrains that Toyota has developed so far are for transverse mounted cars/CUVs and for luxury sedans (GSh and LSh). They don't have anything that will drop into the 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra, GX, LX, Land Cruiser, or FJ and maintain offroad and towing ability at this point.

True. But the vast majority of the minority diesel buyers LOVE their diesels. It's not a technology issue, it's a perception problem that is, thankfully, starting to erode as more people realize today's diesels are not like the dirty ol' ones of the past. Who doesn't appreciate tons of torque at low rpm, while getting hybrid like economy — heck, some getting better than hybrid economy. Diesel choices are currently pretty small, but they're growing, despite Toyota's reluctance. And with a 54.5 mpg fleet economy average required by 2025, there will be more diesels offered. Let's hope the majority starts to see the benefit.

First, diesels can get hybrid gas mileage on the highway in steady state cruise. The more you get away from those ideal steady state conditions, the more things go to the hybrids favor. Just being realistic, most of us don't get to do a lot of steady state, ideal conditions while driving. I do, but I live in rural WV which isn't exactly common for most of the population.

I think that hybrids are a more attractive future option because of three reasons: 1) hybrids recover energy normally lost to braking. Diesels, unless hooked to an electric motor somehow, cannot do this. 2) HSD uses electric motors where they work best (high torque at low RPM) and gas engines where they work best (higher torque at higher engine speeds which translates to pow-ahhh!). Diesels fall on their face at generally 4000rpm. If you want performance and fuel economy, a hybrid is more likely to deliver that than a diesel. 3) NOx emissions as stated above.

Another thing to consider is how much gasoline you get out of one barrel of oil versus diesel. My understanding is that the yield of gasoline, by volume, is quite a bit higher. (i.e. we're more efficient at turning oil into gas than turning oil into diesel.) I wouldn't take this as gospel, though. I can't find a ton of good results confirming this exact scenario. How you refine oil seems to be impacted by market demand.
 
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Legislatively speaking the US discourages diesels and European countries like them. Manufacturers here in the US are penalized for NOx emissions; in Europe they are penalized for CO2 emissions. The different legislative environment is mainly responsible for the gasoline/diesel discrepancy, not market preference. Europeans are also not burned with high diesel fuel taxes like we are in the US. I think the market would respond positively to a diesel option if the subsidy and tax situation was similar to Europe's.

1st person to shove a Cummins into their 5th gen wins:nerd:
 
Legislatively speaking the US discourages diesels and European countries like them. Manufacturers here in the US are penalized for NOx emissions; in Europe they are penalized for CO2 emissions. The different legislative environment is mainly responsible for the gasoline/diesel discrepancy, not market preference. Europeans are also not burned with high diesel fuel taxes like we are in the US. I think the market would respond positively to a diesel option if the subsidy and tax situation was similar to Europe's.

1st person to shove a Cummins into their 5th gen wins:nerd:

Ha!
And absolutely correct. This is why politicians need to harmonize economy AND emission rules so that what's sold in Europe can be sold here. For sure, diesels emit greater proportions of nitrous oxide and particulate matter than gasoline engines, but a diesel's lean burn and high compression ratio lends itself to fewer greenhouse gases.

Quentin, the whole diesel issue is, as you alluded, vastly complex - refining capacities and capability in the US, diesel quality, price, availability, cleanliness of the pumps even - there's no end to the debatable merits — including whether hybrids are better.

Bottom line, I think, is that most 4R or SUV owners would prefer substantially better economy but suffer through 'cause they need a vehicle like this for their life. If that improvement came with a substantial torque boost, even better.

And who knows what improvements will come via hybrids - maybe a breakthrough battery will come along, or maybe even hydrogen may see some gains. But automakers are going to need multi-pronged approaches that include diesel, hybrids, electric, turbos and weight reductions to the coming restrictions and market demand or face a host of consequences.
 
Legislatively speaking the US discourages diesels and European countries like them. Manufacturers here in the US are penalized for NOx emissions; in Europe they are penalized for CO2 emissions. The different legislative environment is mainly responsible for the gasoline/diesel discrepancy, not market preference. Europeans are also not burned with high diesel fuel taxes like we are in the US. I think the market would respond positively to a diesel option if the subsidy and tax situation was similar to Europe's.

1st person to shove a Cummins into their 5th gen wins:nerd:

I respectfully disagree. I know a little about diesel power and current laws regarding emissions and while diesel manufacturers here in the US have been challenged to meet tier 3 and tier 4 emissions standards they have succeeded admirably. The biggest challenge is no market for diesels in light truck and passenger vehicles. Class 5 and above commercial and off highway vehicles have a market and demand. Light trucks do not, excepting the tiny percentage naationwide who would love these vehicles with a diesel. I am one of them as well but I understand and accept that everything is market driven and while there are a vocal few who want diesel the majority wants gas or hybrids. A better debate would be why: Is it education? Is it past history? Why do the vast majority not want diesel?
 
A better debate would be why: Is it education? Is it past history? Why do the vast majority not want diesel?

From an old guy, I would guess most folks from my age group remember as I do, the 70's and early 80's when diesel was almost half the price of gas, and manufacturers did start offering diesel engines in everyday drivers. But they were noisey, dirty, underpowered, hard to work on etc. etc. Remember the GM, VW and even Ford diesel cars? Yes, I realize as do most of the enlightened folks on this forum that diesel's have come a long way.....but first impressions die hard.
 
I respectfully disagree. I know a little about diesel power and current laws regarding emissions and while diesel manufacturers here in the US have been challenged to meet tier 3 and tier 4 emissions standards they have succeeded admirably. The biggest challenge is no market for diesels in light truck and passenger vehicles. Class 5 and above commercial and off highway vehicles have a market and demand. Light trucks do not, excepting the tiny percentage naationwide who would love these vehicles with a diesel. I am one of them as well but I understand and accept that everything is market driven and while there are a vocal few who want diesel the majority wants gas or hybrids. A better debate would be why: Is it education? Is it past history? Why do the vast majority not want diesel?

You are both right. Diesels got a bad rap in the 70's and 80's when MB and VW started selling them because they sounded like a big truck and spewed bellows of pollution out the tail pipe. Everyone old enough to have been driving back then grew to despise them, especially at stop lights or rush hour traffic, and that perception of "smelly, smoky, dirty" remains for the majority of buyers.

But legislation plays a huge role in this, too. Passenger cars and light trucks have to be able to be sold in California, meaning they have to pass the most stringent emissions standards this country has, in order to be sold in most states. The state of Washington requires that a new vehicle must meet California's standards to be sold here. Enough states have adopted this policy that manufacturers have just made vehicles that are 50 state compliant. So California's legislation determines what get sold here in the US. Here is a history of those standards: Emission Standards: USA: Cars and Light-Duty Trucks?California

Biodiesel gets a lot of love from the tree huggers around here but it's not as cheap as gas. Most of the public buses have either been transitioned or are in the process of being transitioned to biodiesel here, but they are exempt from the California standards. As long California's Air Resources Board continues to wage war on PM, NOx, and sulphur emissions from diesels, they will continue to be scarce in the US.
 
A better debate would be why: Is it education? Is it past history? Why do the vast majority not want diesel?

It's both of those and more. Perception is 9/10ths, and why BMW and Mercedes have launched marketing campaigns. Also why the models are called "clean diesel" and the whole Blue theme, which is seen as clean.
As the previous states, most people think smelly and dirty when word diesel comes up. But there is also a different set of emissions rules that really should be aligned. The majority just might want diesel if they knew the benefits - and they may slowly be learning - GM is bringing a diesel Cruze to NA, Mazda a diesel CX-5, Audi a diesel Q5 along with a diesel for every other model it produces. How nice to drive a diesel A4! Mercedes, too, is bringing a diesel GLK, not to mention all the VW diesels.

I think now might be a good time to sit back, pinch some Captain Black into our pipes, and watch this BMW ad.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/g2AdcX5dgE0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
I should have said "I agree but there is more." Yes there are many reasons. Most notably in my recall is the "converted 350 blocks from Chevy to diesel."
 
Here is another issue. All things considered, why would anyone want to buy a power plant that in the long run, costs more to operate? I understand better MPG, but if the engine costs more up front (which I THINK it does) and it costs more to maintain (which again, I THINK it does) and diesel fuel costs more, (which I KNOW it does), where is the benefit? Thanks in advance for the answer(s) and be safe.
 
Here is another issue. All things considered, why would anyone want to buy a power plant that in the long run, costs more to operate? I understand better MPG, but if the engine costs more up front (which I THINK it does) and it costs more to maintain (which again, I THINK it does) and diesel fuel costs more, (which I KNOW it does), where is the benefit? Thanks in advance for the answer(s) and be safe.

Another thing to consider is that turbocharging and direct injection of a gasoline engine gets you a lot of the benefits of a diesel (great low end torque that allows you to run taller gears and lug along on the highway for good gas mileage) without the emissions equipment that seems to be mimicking the early days of catalytic converters with frequent and expensive failures.

It doesn't carry near the cost premium of a diesel either and some are even running 87 octane now. And, you can rev them out to 6500 RPM and make some great power. The only caveat of turbo DIs is that some poorly designed ones (Audi/VW) tend to have carbon buildup on the intake ports.
 
Another thing to consider is that turbocharging and direct injection of a gasoline engine gets you a lot of the benefits of a diesel (great low end torque that allows you to run taller gears and lug along on the highway for good gas mileage) without the emissions equipment that seems to be mimicking the early days of catalytic converters with frequent and expensive failures.

Yup. I'm a big fan of forced induction. Advanced manufacturing technologies and state of the art design make turbo/super-charging a great option. Which is why Gadget needs to offer a kit ASAP!

:nicethread:
 

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