My rear seals and wheel bearings thread

[mtbtim]

I have watched most of your vids and read a big chuck of the giant end-all wheel bearing thread. All I can do is ask them to reverse the inner retainer, but I have a feeling they will either decline, or tell me they won't warranty their work if they do it that way. I trust that you are correct but they aren't going to take the word of some guy on youtube, you know? Now if Toyota has acknowledged this issue that might be different.

This is why I contempated using an aftermarket seal in the first place, because I thought those were more like the original OEM design, even if they are lower quality.

I'm bringing the ales in to the shop tomorrow so I need to decide what I'm doing fast.

I think Marlin Crawler sells a high quality seal that mimics the original seal design. Whatever you do, make sure you do a sharpie test to see where the seal is riding on the retainer, especially if they don't flip the retainer for you.

 

[Ibrad]

Regarding the flipping of the retainer you should video a grease test after you get the axles back and if the new seal is riding near or off the beveled part of the retainer then you have some evidence the shop doesn't know the problem with the newer seals. The grease test is explained elsewhere but in short, grease the retainer and the seal and put axle in and tighten then pull axle out and see where the seal is in relation to grease being wiped off. The seal I referenced had no offset of 2 mm as some mentioned. I will figure out how to post a pic and show my results soon. Ask the shop if they will cover the full cost if it shows gear oil through the abs hole at any point within the next few months. That's a definitive way to see if it's leaking or not and very easy as well.

 

[Previologist]

A grease test won't do me much good because I'll get what I get. I can't press the retainer so it either works or it doesn't. EDIT: I guess if i can get them to press it a tad proud, then I can press it in further as needed using a piece of pipe

I will ask them to reverse the inner retainer and leave 3-4 mm (or a little more) of polish showing. Hopefully they will do it, but if they do, they probably won't warranty it unless they are aware of this problem from their own experience.

 

[mtbtim]

A grease test won't do me much good because I'll get what I get. I can't press the retainer so it either works or it doesn't. EDIT: I guess if i can get them to press it a tad proud, then I can press it in further as needed using a piece of pipe

I will ask them to reverse the inner retainer and leave 3-4 mm (or a little more) of polish showing. Hopefully they will do it, but if they do, they probably won't warranty it unless they are aware of this problem from their own experience.

The nuance of this job is the amount of polished axle showing depends on where you take your measurement from. The point where the polished axle begins isn't perfectly level. You will notice a high and low side. If you measure from the high side to the beginning of the retainer, the perfect distance is probably 5mm. If you measure from the low side, it's probably closer to 3mm. If you measure somewhere in the middle between the low and high side, it's perfect distance is probably around 4mm. This is why I changed my suggestion of going straight to 5mm, because it depends where they are measuring from

If you simply tell them you want the new inner retainer in the exact spot as the old one but in the flipped orientation, and they accurately do that for you, you should get a good mating of the seal and inner retainer.

 

[Ibrad]

My suggestion for showing them the grease test is a means of proving to them what you are talking about. They "should" know but that's an assumption. As to wether they would cover their work if it leaks, my thoughts of their response would be something like "we didn't install the seals in the axle, so we can't cover it".

 

[T4R2014]

My suggestion for showing them the grease test is a means of proving to them what you are talking about. They "should" know but that's an assumption. As to wether they would cover their work if it leaks, my thoughts of their response would be something like "we didn't install the seals in the axle, so we can't cover it".

Sharpie test mentioned above achieves the same thing as the grease test. Agreed. Unless they install the seal, I can't see why they're being so picky about seal brands and retainer measurements. If it leaks they will probably hit you with that line.

 

[Previologist]

Sharpie test mentioned above achieves the same thing as the grease test. Agreed. Unless they install the seal, I can't see why they're being so picky about seal brands and retainer measurements. If it leaks they will probably hit you with that line.

Playing devil's advocate here, but that's because they have done hundreds of these and most people on the internet who report this issue have done a couple, at most.

They certainly are justified in their skepticism if they haven't experienced the problem themselves. Neither does Toyota recognize the problem. I had my local Toyota research this and they found nothing on it. The seal was changed in 2003 or so, but they have no record of associated problems and no updated advice or servicing changes have been developed as a result.

 

[Previologist]

Its also possible that the SFK seals they use are similar to the old OEM, which would eliminate the problem. I am bringing old and new OEM seals to the shop today to compare to the SFK seals before the press the inner retainer

 

[Malcolm99]

The reason for the flipping of the inner retainer is because Toyota redesigned the axle seal some time in the past. The seal lip now sits approximately 2mm more inboard than before. If you place the inner retainer in the same location on the axle shaft as before, the seal will be riding very close to the non-polished bevel. Over time with a little bearing play, the seal could end up riding on the bevel and fail. By flipping the orientation of the inner retainer, the seal doesn't have to first go past the bevel to get up onto the polished shoulder of the retainer, so You effectively gain that 2mm back. With the retainer in the original orientation, bevel facing the seal, you would have to move the retainer further up the axle shaft to get the seal riding closer to the center of the polished shoulder. When you do this, you are getting that retainer very close, if not rubbing the inside of the axle housing.

So, this is the science behind the flipping of the inner retainer and is well-documented in Dr. Coffee write-up and documented in my videos.

I've read that long write up and never seen this problem on all the retainers and seals I've installed, I've seen both your videos, I must have missed the part where you measure the retainers location using the depth gauge of the caliper,.. that is how to properly install the tone ring and retainer in its proper location. So either you're not driving the seal all the way or your retainers are not put back to nearly the identical location it should be. Sorry but that is how this job is done successfully, there is nothing wrong with the OEM updated seal, great videos though.

EDIT: I will say that if someone else had been in there and didn't measure the retainers location that will cause a lot of problems if you don't know what the proper measurements are to relocate everything .

 

[Previologist]

I've read that long write up and never seen this problem on all the retainers and seals I've installed, I've seen both your videos, I must have missed the part where you measure the retainers location using the depth gauge of the caliper,.. that is how to properly install the tone ring and retainer in its proper location. So either you're not driving the seal all the way or your retainers are not put back to nearly the identical location it should be. Sorry but that is how this job is done successfully, there is nothing wrong with the OEM updated seal, great videos though.

EDIT: I will say that if someone else had been in there and didn't measure the retainers location that will cause a lot of problems if you don't know what the proper measurements are to relocate everything .

Had another long talk with my shop when I picked up my axles and I came away fairly convinced of the same thing. The retainer can be pressed on too far apparently, and that may be what has caused the issue for some people. i'm not smart enough to have my own opinion, but I ended up doing it their way.

We shall see.

 

[mtbtim]

I've read that long write up and never seen this problem on all the retainers and seals I've installed, I've seen both your videos, I must have missed the part where you measure the retainers location using the depth gauge of the caliper,.. that is how to properly install the tone ring and retainer in its proper location. So either you're not driving the seal all the way or your retainers are not put back to nearly the identical location it should be. Sorry but that is how this job is done successfully, there is nothing wrong with the OEM updated seal, great videos though.

EDIT: I will say that if someone else had been in there and didn't measure the retainers location that will cause a lot of problems if you don't know what the proper measurements are to relocate everything .

I know what the FSM shows on how to measure the distance to install the inner retainer, and mechanics following this instruction without knowing the new seal design changed the depth of the seal inside the axle tube is the main problem why tons and I mean TONS of dealership, independent shop, and machine shop mechanics f@ck this job up time and time again. You don't need to use a measuring caliper when you use the method I suggest by using the amount of polished axle showing above the retainer as a guideline for the proper placement of the retainer on the axle.

I find it comical that you're suggesting I'm not driving the seal in far enough. I've done this job probably at least 15 times with success.

So sorry Bro, I have a crapload of experience with this job and know what I'm doing. I've seen where the seal rides on the retainer with the new seal design and with the retainer in the original OEM location on the axle, and it's nowhere near center on the polished shoulder on the retainer. This is the reason for the flipping of the retainer because the seal doesn't first have to push past the bevel for it to get up onto the polished shoulder. You gain back the 2mm depth loss of the new seal design without having to move the retainer further inboard risking the retainer rubbing on the inside of the axle housing.

So, you can do it whatever way you want. I know what works and I've taught thousands of people how to perform this job successfully through my videos.

 

[NachesPass4x4]

I've done this job probably at least 15 times with success.

I have a question about this, that I don't think was in the video. If the inner retainer the seal rides on, gets pressed to far, Is it ok to just use the tone ring tool to press it back out a bit and try again? Or will this damage the new retainer and cause a leak? I haven't started reassembly yet, just curious. I'm tempted to try a little ultra grey under the inner retainer for extra insurance.

 

[mtbtim]

I have a question about this, that I don't think was in the video. If the inner retainer the seal rides on, gets pressed to far, Is it ok to just use the tone ring tool to press it back out a bit and try again? Or will this damage the new retainer and cause a leak? I haven't started reassembly yet, just curious. I'm tempted to try a little ultra grey under the inner retainer for extra insurance.

You can pull the ABS tone ring and inner retainer back some with the axle tools no problem. It wouldn't hurt adding some sealant to the retainer, but i only think this would be necessary if you were using a used retainer that was pulled off the axle and the act of pulling it off left striations in the metal that could allow gear oil to get past. This is why it's a good idea to use a new retainer for the inner retainer. For the outer retainer, you can reuse that one no problem because it's just a place holder for the bearing.

 

[Previologist]

Another thing my shop mentioned is that the seal might not have to be driven all the way back, as long as its evenly pressed all around. Leaving it a bit proud might also help compensate for the changed seal (a change which is plainly obvious when you compare old and new side by side). Not sure how viable an option that is for the average home mechanic, but thought I'd mention it. I'll be happy if i can just get the seals in without ruining them.

Timmy your videos are invaluable, there's no doubt about that. I did my clutch and timing belt and so far, my rear wheel bearings and seals and I never could have or would have attempted any of these jobs without your videos. I will use your valve cover gasket video next year and I'm sure i will use more of them when I get around to other jobs. Keep up the great work!

 

[mtbtim]

Another thing my shop mentioned is that the seal might not have to be driven all the way back, as long as its evenly pressed all around. Leaving it a bit proud might also help compensate for the changed seal (a change which is plainly obvious when you compare old and new side by side). Not sure how viable an option that is for the average home mechanic, but thought I'd mention it. I'll be happy if i can just get the seals in without ruining them.

Timmy your videos are invaluable, there's no doubt about that. I did my clutch and timing belt and so far, my rear wheel bearings and seals and I never could have or would have attempted any of these jobs without your videos. I will use your valve cover gasket video next year and I'm sure i will use more of them when I get around to other jobs. Keep up the great work!

Yes, if you can accurately drive in the seal shy of being fully seated into the axle housing this could compensate for the new seal design. It's just difficult to accurately do this because one strike with the seal driver and hammer can end up seating the seal fully in on at least one side of the seal. But, with enough seals, you could most likely get it done.

I'm happy to know our videos have been helping you out.

Happy Wrenching!

 

[Ibrad]

I would suggest fully seating the seal each and every time. Think how many bounces and hard pothole hits the axle takes each and every day. You don't want a seal 80% seated and the next pothole to knock it out and be churning around the tone ring then ate up and make its way into the differential. That's a bad thought. The abs ring and the retainer are made to be adjusted. Measurements are good but as always suggested the paint pen, sharpie test or the old school grease test are foolproof. I did not flip my retainer but did reuse them. If minuscule striations are left in the axle when pulling the tone ring and retainers off, and this is cause for concern, then a new axle would have been recommended as needing replaced when doing the rear wheel bearings by Toyota I would think.

 

[morphius909]

The much dreaded, much procrastinated, smelly oily messy day has arrived. Thank goodness i smashed up my other Toyota in July, so i could avoid this job to work on that one. Well I can't avoid it any longer, winter is coming and this is my rustbucket winter driver.

Hopefully my next post will be "yay, I'm done" because I'm just pulling the axles and having the local driveline shop do the real work. But just in case...

I noticed my rear passenger leaking...I just pretended to not seen the staining....

 

[Previologist]

I noticed my rear passenger leaking...I just pretended to not seen the staining....

deal with your (most likely) clogged breather and there's a chance it will stop

 

[GhostRing]

deal with your (most likely) clogged breather and there's a chance it will stop

It may stop, but it sure ain't fixed...

 

[Previologist]

It may stop, but it sure ain't fixed...

Nope, but some people are content with stopping the leak and repacking the bearings, or even just stopping the leak until the bearings blow. That wouldn't be my choice, but...some do it.