Is this a required/suggested mod when lifting the rear on any KDSS equipped 4runner? I know it helps center the axle, found one thread from awhile back discussing it but it seemed like opinions were kind of scattered. I've seen many KDSS build threads without mention of one but didn't know if I was just missing it.
New rear track bar for lift on KDSS vehicles?
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jbstrd
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Kdss vs. non-kdss has no real bearing in this argument. An adjustable pan hard bar is not required with a mild lift like yourself. I am running a full 3" lift and I do not have one. I don't have any problems without one either. It certainly won't hurt to get one. I think the general consensus is if you are lifting more than 3" in the rear, it is recommended.
Jetboy
New member
As was mentioned. With a small lift - not needed. With a big lift - shouldn't be needed either... although I would probably buy one to fine tune lateral axle placement.
What you really should be doing is modifying the mounting location so the bar is horizontal as a starting point. A longer bar kinda works, but doesn't really get to the core issue. Drop bracket for the upper mount or an extended bracket for the axle side would be a better choice. With just a longer panhard bar sitting at an angle your 4runner will handle very poorly on the highway over big bumps - it causes the rear to shift laterally and feels unsettling. And it makes for poor towing characteristics.
What you really should be doing is modifying the mounting location so the bar is horizontal as a starting point. A longer bar kinda works, but doesn't really get to the core issue. Drop bracket for the upper mount or an extended bracket for the axle side would be a better choice. With just a longer panhard bar sitting at an angle your 4runner will handle very poorly on the highway over big bumps - it causes the rear to shift laterally and feels unsettling. And it makes for poor towing characteristics.
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wfo9
New member
The axle shift thread talks about this... The ideal solution is to move the mounting bracket up or down to match the amount of lift.
Additionally, KDSS vehicles have some issue with the trackbar contacting the swaybar with a significant amount of down travel (LT). Someone (rochmpr ?) was talking about getting a custom bent trackbar fabricated to resolve this.
If you are just doing a basic lift, you don't need to worry about it. The 5th gens track bar is pretty long (I think 40"), so the lateral movement is minimal.
Additionally, KDSS vehicles have some issue with the trackbar contacting the swaybar with a significant amount of down travel (LT). Someone (rochmpr ?) was talking about getting a custom bent trackbar fabricated to resolve this.
If you are just doing a basic lift, you don't need to worry about it. The 5th gens track bar is pretty long (I think 40"), so the lateral movement is minimal.
DesertCanyons
New member
Panhard bar location
[MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION]
Thanks for explaining the rotation of the panhard track bar so well. In your illustration, why do you feel the red bar location is more ideal than the green bar location? Both have the same result on the bar movement during suspension movement. The green bar location may be easier to achieve, by raising the anchor point on just the axle end of the track bar. And the frame side of the track bar is already extended down a ways, which creates a bending moment or lateral stress on the tall anchor/frame assembly. And by raising the axle end it may bring the bar above the differential and the anti-sway bar and KDSS piston assembly (not sure about this last point, would have to measure directly).
As was mentioned. With a small lift - not needed. With a big lift - shouldn't be needed either... although I would probably buy one to fine tune lateral axle placement.
What you really should be doing is modifying the mounting location so the bar is horizontal as a starting point. A longer bar kinda works, but doesn't really get to the core issue. Drop bracket for the upper mount or an extended bracket for the axle side would be a better choice. With just a longer panhard bar sitting at an angle your 4runner will handle very poorly on the highway over big bumps - it causes the rear to shift laterally and feels unsettling. And it makes for poor towing characteristics.
[MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION]
Thanks for explaining the rotation of the panhard track bar so well. In your illustration, why do you feel the red bar location is more ideal than the green bar location? Both have the same result on the bar movement during suspension movement. The green bar location may be easier to achieve, by raising the anchor point on just the axle end of the track bar. And the frame side of the track bar is already extended down a ways, which creates a bending moment or lateral stress on the tall anchor/frame assembly. And by raising the axle end it may bring the bar above the differential and the anti-sway bar and KDSS piston assembly (not sure about this last point, would have to measure directly).
As was mentioned. With a small lift - not needed. With a big lift - shouldn't be needed either... although I would probably buy one to fine tune lateral axle placement.
What you really should be doing is modifying the mounting location so the bar is horizontal as a starting point. A longer bar kinda works, but doesn't really get to the core issue. Drop bracket for the upper mount or an extended bracket for the axle side would be a better choice. With just a longer panhard bar sitting at an angle your 4runner will handle very poorly on the highway over big bumps - it causes the rear to shift laterally and feels unsettling. And it makes for poor towing characteristics.
Super helpful diagram....thanks everyone!
Jetboy
New member
I didn't make that picture. I just found it on the internet from another site, but I do think it's accurate.
When moving in purely vertical motion the vertical offset of the panhard isn't going to make much difference. The two would act similarly, but when the axle is articulating, that's where the panhard bar offset causes unwanted motion. The bracket fixed to the axle becomes a lever arm and causes the axle to shift when articulating. So in an ideal world the bar would be parallel to the axle and at the center line.
In our world, since you'd be extending one side or the other, it's the better choice to extend the drop bracket from the frame unless there's some other issue that you need to make a different compromise.
I just installed an ICON Stage 2 with the 3'' Overland Rear Spring and had to install the ICON rear track bar. Called Joe ( I believe that is his name) at ICON and he confirmed that when installing the ICON systems on KDSS equipped vehicle a rear track bar is required. He stated that most vendors have that information when ordering the ICON systems for KDSS vehicles. After installing the ICON track bar (part # 54200), I had no issues reinstalling the rear KDSS. Hope this helps.
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Good info to know, thanks for sharing.
But I wonder if you needed the new trackbar because of the height of the lift moreso than it being an ICON system? The rear lift component of that kit is typically a 2" spring and new shocks, correct?
jbstrd
New member
The track bar is definitely not "required" as he told you, but it doesn't hurt.
wfo9
New member
This does not sound right.
Maybe I was duped by ICON but after speaking with Joe he with no hesitation stated that for the 2015 KDSS equipped T4R the aftermarket track bar was required. I'm not sure why either- as this was my first install. When I ordered the stage 2 the track bar was not included but Joe @ ICON said most vendors now annotate that the track bar is required. Maybe I'll call him again and he can elaborate..... But, the install is complete and the track bar is in place and no issues.
With the standard Icon rear shocks, the bottom of the KDSS piston will contact the track bar. Can't imagine an aftermarket track bar would make any difference, unless it was curved, smaller diameter, or something. I don't think Icon's track bar is any of those things.
DesertCanyons
New member
ICON track bar & location of anchors
[MENTION=126375]Buck208[/MENTION]
Thanks for the reminder Buck208. I remember reading in a post here a couple of months ago that ICON created a new track bar with a slight bend in it to miss the KDSS system.
As to the location of the panhard bar location discussed by [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION], I will have to think about what you said about when the axle articulates before I understand the dynamic motion better. I think when the axle is articulating it may also be rotating, as one wheel drops the other rises, so it may not matter which end is moved. But the track bar should definitely start out very nearly level, as you said.
[MENTION=126375]Buck208[/MENTION]
With the standard Icon rear shocks, the bottom of the KDSS piston will contact the track bar. Can't imagine an aftermarket track bar would make any difference, unless it was curved, smaller diameter, or something. I don't think Icon's track bar is any of those things.
Thanks for the reminder Buck208. I remember reading in a post here a couple of months ago that ICON created a new track bar with a slight bend in it to miss the KDSS system.
As to the location of the panhard bar location discussed by [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION], I will have to think about what you said about when the axle articulates before I understand the dynamic motion better. I think when the axle is articulating it may also be rotating, as one wheel drops the other rises, so it may not matter which end is moved. But the track bar should definitely start out very nearly level, as you said.
Jetboy
New member
I made a new drawing to show why you want to lower the frame side drop bracket rather than raise the axle side to keep the bar as close to the axle centerline as possible.
It's a bit extreme, but I think it helps visualize what's happening. Sometimes it might not matter, but othertimes it might. Especially if clearance is tight at the fender for example.
It's a bit extreme, but I think it helps visualize what's happening. Sometimes it might not matter, but othertimes it might. Especially if clearance is tight at the fender for example.
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DesertCanyons
New member
ICON track bar
Not that one. That's the Front Adjustable Pan Rod Bar Kit or front track bar for the front of a Dodge 2500 & 3500 trucks.
Icon Vehicle Dynamics | 214030 | Front Adjustable Pan Rod Bar Kit
I wouldn't know about whether the right ICON panhard bar allows long travel suspension with KDSS. I'm not interested in rock crawling or extreme axle articulation, just a moderate lift and a straight track at the rear axle.
Also, regarding relocating the anchor points of the track bar, if you move it so it's level you have to be able to adjust the length because the length needs to change (shorten).
So will that trackbar allow a LT rear shock to work with KDSS?
Not that one. That's the Front Adjustable Pan Rod Bar Kit or front track bar for the front of a Dodge 2500 & 3500 trucks.
Icon Vehicle Dynamics | 214030 | Front Adjustable Pan Rod Bar Kit
I wouldn't know about whether the right ICON panhard bar allows long travel suspension with KDSS. I'm not interested in rock crawling or extreme axle articulation, just a moderate lift and a straight track at the rear axle.
Also, regarding relocating the anchor points of the track bar, if you move it so it's level you have to be able to adjust the length because the length needs to change (shorten).
DesertCanyons
New member
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