New springs needed with Bilstein 5100’s adding a steel bumper and winch?

[cwilliams563]

I currently have 5100’s all the way around with the front perch set at 0, toy tech Eibach front springs with 1/2” spacer driver and 1/4” pass. Rear 5100, Toytec superflex RCC 2.0, no spacer and just installed Airlift 1000 5-3/8”x8-1/2” bags on Wed.

I have a Tyger Bull bar on front with lights, estimated weight ~40lbs. There was a definite droop and squishier suspension on install of just of Bull Bar. Looking to replace it with a Victory Blitz flush bumper with a winch. Sounds like weight will be around 100lbs. I didn’t realize just how worthless a Bull Bar was until I installed it. Other than looks and holds lights well. Covers up my recovery hooks and bar is to weak to use for recovery, glad I haven’t needed to hook on to anything yet!

Questions are, should I replace the springs with some in the 650-700lbs range, or just raise the spring perch a couple notches? I think the Eibach springs are 620lbs. I have soooo much more money (getting limited) I need to put into this I’m trying to maximise. If I do replace the springs, should I also look into the 6112’s as well while I’m at it? If I go that far was wondering if I should consider the Bilstein 5160’s with reservoir as well? Current Toytec RCC 2.0 springs with brand new Airlift 1000 bags ok?

I’m going to be purchasing some adjustable SPC UCA’s and get some used LCA’s to rebuild them too so I can just swap at install. I want to do it all at once while I have it apart. I definitely want to do it right, but if I can compromise safely I’ll consider. I guess pros and cons what you all see?

 

[Wild Thing]

Interested to hear responses and see what you do here, C. Will be upgrading my suspension from stock X-REAS later this year and similarly want to do it all at once, leaving room for addition of weight later. New springs, shocks/struts, adjustable UCAs, and maybe a diff drop to start.

The dilemma is that it'll likely be another 6 - 12 months before the budget recovers enough to add weight with the Blitz, a winch, a rear swingout bumper and a roof rack. That means that in the interim, the ride'll be stiff and heavy duty springs won't have the weight to load properly. Don't see a way around this, other than doing two suspension upgrades. And that ain't gonna happen.

Good questions and good luck.

 

[MAST4R]

I have soooo much more money (getting limited) I need to put into this I’m trying to maximise.

Here is my personal ranking:

0/ Whatever needed to have a safe/reliable vehicle, maintenance items, etc.

Now, the fun part:

1/ Suspension, Suspension, Suspension

The 6112 on 650lb is not a race shock but is very capable and suffices to drive at a good speed through the desert. There is no way 5100s can handle that and if you put heavy springs on them, you will just mask their shortcomings and shorten their lifespan. I got the best 6112 deal from BBO but Total Automotive can also have good deals. The standard spring is plush on road but not good enough for any serious offroading.

The problem is the rear, at say, at a minimum you will want Icon 2.0 with resi. Without resi, mine were done in 13k. Yes, good use, but still. If you do shorter stretches and not very often or if you prioritize low-range trails and do little of anything else, 2.0 non-resi Icon are pretty good especially for the price. I think Fox 2.0 is harsher on road, probably same off road.

And don't lift is so much as to compromise completely down travel.

2/ Whatever else you want but it is all optional.

What do you need a winch for in AZ? I mean, you won't be driving Highway to Hell and the like anyway. No need to be out the one time a year it pours.

If you do need to replace UCAs, sure go ahead while you are on it. Exit Offroad is running what looks like a good deal on SPC UCAs. The Dobs ones seem fine to me, very functional. But SPC is currently a little cheaper on Mike's website. So looks like a good time to get one but do verify the prices on Google to make sure the discount is as big as advertised.

For LCAs, not sure anything is needed above what Toyota offers.

If you do lots of ledges, DOM rear lower control arms are a great idea and bracket skids are always a great idea. Mine have been used many times, esp the pax side.

With a capable suspension and 2" lift, skids can be de-prioritized but still help.

Rock sliders definitely help. It is very rare that they do in my experience, but when they are needed, they are really needed.

If you do front bumper, do it to prioritize approach angle but even so the limiting factor is more the rear, I have never had issues with AA (sure the valance looks like crap but the bumper itself is fine). And with an Eibach 1" spring and the Icon 2.0 issues in the rear stopped as well as the stiffer suspension prevents the bumper from hugging every big rock for goodbye.

 

[cwilliams563]

Here is my personal ranking:

0/ Whatever needed to have a safe/reliable vehicle, maintenance items, etc.

Now, the fun part:

1/ Suspension, Suspension, Suspension

The 6112 on 650lb is not a race shock but is very capable and suffices to drive at a good speed through the desert. There is no way 5100s can handle that and if you put heavy springs on them, you will just mask their shortcomings and shorten their lifespan. I got the best 6112 deal from BBO but Total Automotive can also have good deals. The standard spring is plush on road but not good enough for any serious offroading.

The problem is the rear, at say, at a minimum you will want Icon 2.0 with resi. Without resi, mine were done in 13k. Yes, good use, but still. If you do shorter stretches and not very often or if you prioritize low-range trails and do little of anything else, 2.0 non-resi Icon are pretty good especially for the price. I think Fox 2.0 is harsher on road, probably same off road.

And don't lift is so much as to compromise completely down travel.

2/ Whatever else you want but it is all optional.

What do you need a winch for in AZ? I mean, you won't be driving Highway to Hell and the like anyway. No need to be out the one time a year it pours.

If you do need to replace UCAs, sure go ahead while you are on it. Exit Offroad is running what looks like a good deal on SPC UCAs. The Dobs ones seem fine to me, very functional. But SPC is currently a little cheaper on Mike's website. So looks like a good time to get one but do verify the prices on Google to make sure the discount is as big as advertised.

For LCAs, not sure anything is needed above what Toyota offers.

If you do lots of ledges, DOM rear lower control arms are a great idea and bracket skids are always a great idea. Mine have been used many times, esp the pax side.

With a capable suspension and 2" lift, skids can be de-prioritized but still help.

Rock sliders definitely help. It is very rare that they do in my experience, but when they are needed, they are really needed.

If you do front bumper, do it to prioritize approach angle but even so the limiting factor is more the rear, I have never had issues with AA (sure the valance looks like crap but the bumper itself is fine). And with an Eibach 1" spring and the Icon 2.0 issues in the rear stopped as well as the stiffer suspension prevents the bumper from hugging every big rock for goodbye.

I appreciate your input for sure. Are the Icon 2.0’s any or much better than the Bilstein 5160’s? I considered going 6112/5160’s initially (apparently I should have lol, to just do it over) but did not want or plan on a steel bumper. The Blitz is a good compromise though. I believe my front coils are #620lb Eibach silver ToyTac branded. Would the #650 springs be good enough? I plan on getting the Blitz half bumper and winch, Victory full roof rack, full sized spare up top, ladder on hatch, Protax water and fuel packs, and loaded down when going on trips.

I do need high caster UCA’s as with my alignment I am sitting at approx. .4* and .6* degrees and truck is pretty floaty on the road.

The Victory 4x4 Blitz flush bumper will be great for AA’s as it doesn’t stick out very far at all. I need to ditch my bull bar for sure. I am in the 3,000’ elevation range and actually rains quite a bit here (not near as much as normal this last year) and does get pretty muddy. Spending a lot of time in the mountains it rains a fair amount too and back roads are sloppy. It has rained for almost a week while out camping and hunting up North. Spending time by the river and in sand washes there is plenty of potential to get stuck. Spending time hunting and fishing on the Apache Rez around the point of pines area, the roads are crazy nasty quick sand mud. You’re buried to your frame before you know it! I’d rather have a winch and not use it, than not have it and need it.

I don’t off-road for fun (yet) it’s what we do to get to places to hunt and fish. Many nasty areas and usually very isolated without a convoy of 4x4’s to help pull you out. Your on your own typically and could be life or death. This is my daily driver now and mainly pavement, but is used for off road during hunting or scouting time.

I’ll check out BBO, Total Automotive, and Mikes site. Thank you for all the info.

 

[MAST4R]

I appreciate your input for sure. Are the Icon 2.0’s any or much better than the Bilstein 5160’s?

Would the #650 springs be good enough? I plan on getting the Blitz half bumper and winch, Victory full roof rack, full sized spare up top, ladder on hatch, Protax water and fuel packs, and loaded down when going on trips.

and does get pretty muddy.

I’ll check out BBO, Total Automotive, and Mikes site. Thank you for all the info.

Yeah, last year was insane. We have got like one rainy day since February or so.

I now understand why the winch. We are always solo, in fact, we have never driven an AZ or MT trail in company, only in UT and CO. We have done some very remote AZ trails in our Outback with some mud along the way. It sure gets your heart racing, driving with little kids 30-40 miles from nearest pavement and facing some mud.

Anyway. The 650lb springs will probably feel smoother on road once you put the bumper. Looks like your weights won't be extreme enough for 700. And I assume you won't be going all that fast on rough terrain with all the loads anyway. So you may actually get the best of both worlds: heavier load making for an even nicer ride on road and lesser loads allowing for faster trail driving.

I wish I had an answer about the rear. I read too many stories about 5160 leaking early and Bilstein themselves did not make a strong case for it when I contacted them. Their short term warranty on the 5160 was a warning sign.

That said, is the Icon 2.0 or Fox 2.0 without resi really re-buildable? Technically yes, but in practice....

I suppose an Icon 2.0 with resi or Fox 2.0 with resi will last a lot longer than without. And those are definitely rebuildable. Accutune can get you a Fox 2.0 valved better than the harsh factory option and if you get LSC you may be able to stiffen from there for the interstate. But I don't know anything for sure beyond what I have tried myself.

I would love to try all shocks because I think it is fun but since nobody is offering to pay for that, lol, I am thinking going straight to Blstein 8100 in the rear and then 8112 front 3-4 years later. I very much fear going to a mid-level to then only pay again for a top setup.

For you, I have no idea what would be best, but here are the three options I would contemplate if I were in your shoes:

Fox 2.0 with resi, LSC and Accutune valving
Icon 2.0 with resi
5160

I had no experience with performance products when choosing the first time so I may have taken negative comments made on this forum about the 5160 too seriously. When pushed, none of these would last very long and 5160 is the cheapest plus made to work with 6112. So it may not be a bad start.

Btw, my backup to 8100 rears seems to be the Dobs MRA at half the price but still lots of adjustability. Will see. That is a lot more than 5160 but rebuildable and really adjustable. It is only fractionally more than an Accutune valved Fox 2.0 with adjuster.

Good luck!

 

[flipflopnfly]

Buy once cry once. If you're changing springs, UCA's, buy the stouter 60mm shocks to go along with them Bilstein 6112 vs. 5100 Shocks, what are the major differences? – Shock Surplus

There's many options for stout 60mm shocks, the big deal is just get the thicker body, thicker shaft shocks like a 6112, don't mamby-pamby around with 46mm shocks like the 5100.

 

[cwilliams563]

[MENTION=306890]MAST4R[/MENTION] I appreciate all the info once again. I did misinform, it looks like my ToyTec Eibach front coils are 512600 which would make them #600lb coils. The #650lb would definitely be stouter then if I had the #620’s. I’ll go with the 6112’s for the front and look at #650lb springs. Any preference on brand or do they all pretty much do the same? I read a lot about the OME but read they tend to rust. I hear about Dobs as well.

I have a Subi Crosstrek and I’m amazed at how well that thing does off road for what it is. Thought for sure I was going to get it buried last Jan. in some nasty mud climbing a hill but pulled through well.

I was reading too about the 5160’s leaking from a guy who was 0 for 4 (I think), no reason to take the chance. I do need to get some extended bump stop kits as well and kinda looking at the Durobumps. I’ll definitely have the Icon 2.0 w/ resi and the Fox re-valved in my sights as the priorities.

[MENTION=142445]flipflopnfly[/MENTION] I totally agree about the buy once cry once. I thought that’s what I was doing initially only to be redoing it lol. I‘’lol go with the 6112’s

 

[MAST4R]

[MENTION=306890]MAST4R[/MENTION] I appreciate all the info once again. I did misinform, it looks like my ToyTec Eibach front coils are 512600 which would make them #600lb coils. The #650lb would definitely be stouter then if I had the #620’s. I’ll go with the 6112’s for the front and look at #650lb springs. Any preference on brand or do they all pretty much do the same? I read a lot about the OME but read they tend to rust. I hear about Dobs as well.

I have a Subi Crosstrek and I’m amazed at how well that thing does off road for what it is. Thought for sure I was going to get it buried last Jan. in some nasty mud climbing a hill but pulled through well.

I was reading too about the 5160’s leaking from a guy who was 0 for 4 (I think), no reason to take the chance. I do need to get some extended bump stop kits as well and kinda looking at the Durobumps. I’ll definitely have the Icon 2.0 w/ resi and the Fox re-valved in my sights as the priorities.

[MENTION=142445]flipflopnfly[/MENTION] I totally agree about the buy once cry once. I thought that’s what I was doing initially only to be redoing it lol. I‘’lol go with the 6112’s

Having a 4R and a Subaru is awesome; our other vehicle is a Tribeca. 11 years ago I took a Tribeca on the Senator Highway and the likes bumpy dirt roads but it always caused wide open eyes as it looks like a minivan.

The 6112 can ONLY work properly with their own springs. You can buy with either standard or 650lb. You will want the 650 plus I think you can resell 650 but not the standard ones (I have tried).

I assume King springs could work but the 6112 is 2.65 body so it cannot fit into any Dobinsons or regular OME springs or any other standard size springs.

EDIT: 6112 price includes the spring but not a tophat.

 

[cwilliams563]

Having a 4R and a Subaru is awesome; our other vehicle is a Tribeca. 11 years ago I took a Tribeca on the Senator Highway and the likes bumpy dirt roads but it always caused wide open eyes as it looks like a minivan.

The 6112 can ONLY work properly with their own springs. You can buy with either standard or 650lb. You will want the 650 plus I think you can resell 650 but not the standard ones (I have tried).

I assume King springs could work but the 6112 is 2.65 body so it cannot fit into any Dobinsons or regular OME springs or any other standard size springs.

EDIT: 6112 price includes the spring but not a tophat.

Yes it is! I got my Crosstrek for kind of a go most places kind of mini SUV with great gas mileage. I went with them due to being AWD and X-Mode. They far exceeded everything else in their class in off-road tests, especially with 3 wheels on the ground and the roller rack tests. Been very happy so far. Started with the 2019 and just upgraded to the 2021 in Sept. due to the new 2.5L engine and is now a perfect small vehicle!

Well that explains why I’m only seeing the 6112’s with springs lol. Now that I look I see the weight for 650lb springs. Appreciate all the info! Already went though lol this when doing my lift the first time only about 5,000ish Mi ago lol.

 

[Tironeous]

I’m in a similar boat, leaning 6112 with 650 in-lb spring (V8). Best price I’ve found so far is $639 at Battleborn Offroad using promo code T4R. My understanding is they’re a better fit for most drivers than the Fox 2.0.

I’m undecided in the rear and I’ll be following this thread to get some ideas. I’m finding 5160s ($350) are twice as much at 5100s ($175) for the rear. I’m currently leaning 5100 with Icon 2” rear springs.


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[MAST4R]

I’m in a similar boat, leaning 6112 with 650 in-lb spring (V8). Best price I’ve found so far is $639 at Battleborn Offroad using promo code T4R. My understanding is they’re a better fit for most drivers than the Fox 2.0.

I’m undecided in the rear and I’ll be following this thread to get some ideas. I’m finding 5160s ($350) are twice as much at 5100s ($175) for the rear. I’m currently leaning 5100 with Icon 2” rear springs.


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When I bought, BBO was the best price as well. They were somewhat cheaper but it was 2 years ago. So I think what you have got is a good price now.

For the rear, I am looking at 8100 with 8112 in the future and Dobinsons MRA is a backup plan.

I have made an Excel spreadsheet for the rear shocks with the 6112 on 650lb. Don't go 5100, Eibach, or the like, they will be way less capable than the front. They will do, but won't feel right. They can do better with the 6112 on standard springs. I have a pair of Eibachs on right now, they are my spare rear shocks.

I strongly suggest reservoirs, based on my Icon 2.0 experience. Without reservoirs they don't last between rebuilds (13k for me) and they heat up and gas pressure builds and they get rough. They would be fine on low-range trails.

Baseline option: 5160
Very good option: Icon 2.0 with resi.
More desirable: Fox 2.0 with resi from Accutune with their tune
Best? Dobinsons MRA.
Wild card: BP-51???

The Dobinsons MRA should be the best before you get to a rear that is better than the front. But this is based on damping curves not on real life experience, so....

The BP-51 I think could work well with the 6112 but rebuilding that would be harder due to the shock being an internal bypass. And it costs enough to make experimenting harder to entertain.

So if for some reason I do not get 8100, the MRA is the most likely option for me. I will probably also get rebuild kits right away so I don't have to worry down the road if supplies from Australia are an issue.

 

[Tironeous]

@%1;I’m keeping a spreadsheet as well. I’m pretty set on doing 6112 with 650 in-lbs springs for the front. I haven’t been as obsessive about the rear. Sounds like I need to do some more homework. Might just do 5160s with OME 895 or Icon 2” spring and call it good.


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[MAST4R]

@%1;I’m keeping a spreadsheet as well. I’m pretty set on doing 6112 with 650 in-lbs springs for the front. I haven’t been as obsessive about the rear. Sounds like I need to do some more homework. Might just do 5160s with OME 895 or Icon 2” spring and call it good.


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It surely makes sense to start with the 5160 since it is the closest match to the front. There is someone in SFO selling a well used TRD suspension. I think they sold the springs but if you can get the rear shocks for like 50$ total in person that would be worth it. They won't last long at all, I guess, but you will know if you like the 5160 (assuming the TRD valving is similar to the aftermarket).

If they were local to me, I would totally buy the 5160 at 45k miles on the cheap just so I can try them out in the desert for the heck of it.

 

[MAST4R]

@%1;I’m keeping a spreadsheet as well. I’m pretty set on doing 6112 with 650 in-lbs springs for the front. I haven’t been as obsessive about the rear. Sounds like I need to do some more homework. Might just do 5160s with OME 895 or Icon 2” spring and call it good.


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Yes it is! I got my Crosstrek for kind of a go most places kind of mini SUV with great gas mileage. I went with them due to being AWD and X-Mode. They far exceeded everything else in their class in off-road tests, especially with 3 wheels on the ground and the roller rack tests. Been very happy so far. Started with the 2019 and just upgraded to the 2021 in Sept. due to the new 2.5L engine and is now a perfect small vehicle!

Well that explains why I’m only seeing the 6112’s with springs lol. Now that I look I see the weight for 650lb springs. Appreciate all the info! Already went though lol this when doing my lift the first time only about 5,000ish Mi ago lol.

New data point.

Pushing the leaking Icon 2.0 by hand, they stop with around 1.5" of exposed shaft. It feels like a hard stop but I suppose it is a matter of pressure. If I open them, I will learn more. Considering that with 1" rear spring they have 4" of exposed shaft on the vehicle, that means their normal uptravel was only 2.5" . No wonder they were not very nice on choppy terrain with a 1" rear lift.

So definitely reservoirs should help with the Icon on both durability and comfort. Maybe 2" lift is optimal for them.

The Fox 2.0 has a slightly shorter body, on paper at least, so it may have more up travel in the 0-1.5" lift version. But the IFP Fox 2.0 has a pretty awful rep for road comfort. I think it is pressurized to 200 psi or more vs 150 psi for the Icon.

I am considering rebuilding the Icons and maybe even revalving them just for the learning experience. And then maybe keep them for spares.

 

[cwilliams563]

Here is my personal ranking:
What do you need a winch for in AZ? I mean, you won't be driving Highway to Hell and the like anyway. No need to be out the one time a year it pours.

I think you Jinxed me haha. It rained Saturday, most of the day Sunday here and snowed all night last night at work and still snowing now lol. The backroads roads are going to be a sloppy muddy mess.

One other question for ya. Do the Icon 2.0 v.s. w/ resi. Leak pretty fast and have to be rebuilt often? I guess for me often would be like every 5,000-15,000mi. I would like to get at least 50,000 w/o issues but don’t know anything about shocks like these. Before I order just making sure there’s no downside like that.

 

[MAST4R]

One other question for ya. Do the Icon 2.0 v.s. w/ resi. Leak pretty fast and have to be rebuilt often? I guess for me often would be like every 5,000-15,000mi. I would like to get at least 50,000 w/o issues but don’t know anything about shocks like these. Before I order just making sure there’s no downside like that.

Mine are IFP so they lasted, I dunno, maybe 10k before they started leaking a little and 13k before they had to be pulled.

The reservoirs should help a great deal by reducing operating pressures. But I don't know if beyond 25k is realistic with actual off-pavement use.

I think the only reason stock suspensions used off pavement last longer is because they force very low speeds. And though my Subaru did not leak at 70k, the shocks were not performing the way they should. So I guess the springs mask the deficiencies of stock shocks.

 

[flipflopnfly]

I think you Jinxed me haha. It rained Saturday, most of the day Sunday here and snowed all night last night at work and still snowing now lol. The backroads roads are going to be a sloppy muddy mess.

One other question for ya. Do the Icon 2.0 v.s. w/ resi. Leak pretty fast and have to be rebuilt often? I guess for me often would be like every 5,000-15,000mi. I would like to get at least 50,000 w/o issues but donÂ’t know anything about shocks like these. Before I order just making sure thereÂ’s no downside like that.

I put Firestone airbags on the rear to avoid shock fade with the BOSS monotube shocks, don't need resi shocks. Rear articulation is still good because I remove the rear sway bar. The airbags can be pumped up to handle highway speeds instead of the rear swaybar, deflate for offroad articulation.

Airbags are a cheap alternative to expensive rear suspension mods, especially if you tow. I tow 4klbs and still go offroad once I unhook. Everything is compromises be it cost, offroading, towing.

You put those lift coils on and longer shocks on the rear you won't get the additional articulation until you remove the rear swaybar. Then when you remove the rear swaybar the brake lines get stretched so you have to add extended brake lines.

 

[cwilliams563]

[MENTION=306890]MAST4R[/MENTION] thank you for the help and advice again

Just to follow up with what I had ordered

Front
-SPC Adjustable UCA’s
-New OEM LCA’s
-SPC cam bolts X2 pair
-Bilstein 6112 w/650# Bilstein springs
-KYB tophats X2
-Durobumps front bump stops X2


Rear
-Fox 2.0 w/Resis from Accutune with the Adventure tune (nobody I could find had the Icon 2.0 w/ resi’s and were about 3 months out)
-Durobump Rear bump stops X2

The 6112’s came in yesterday and those things are BEEF compared to the 5100’s!
The rest should be trickling in this next week starting Monday

[MENTION=142445]flipflopnfly[/MENTION] Those are great points about the airbags. I have installed 8-1/2” Airlift 1000’s on mine earlier this month so time will tell for me. I don’t tow yet with mine but weight in the back sure sagged the ass end before the bags.

 

[MAST4R]

[MENTION=306890]MAST4R[/MENTION] thank you for the help and advice again

Just to follow up with what I had ordered

Front
-SPC Adjustable UCA’s
-New OEM LCA’s
-SPC cam bolts X2 pair
-Bilstein 6112 w/650# Bilstein springs
-KYB tophats X2
-Durobumps front bump stops X2


Rear
-Fox 2.0 w/Resis from Accutune with the Adventure tune (nobody I could find had the Icon 2.0 w/ resi’s and were about 3 months out)
-Durobump Rear bump stops X2

The 6112’s came in yesterday and those things are BEEF compared to the 5100’s!
The rest should be trickling in this next week starting Monday

[MENTION=142445]flipflopnfly[/MENTION] Those are great points about the airbags. I have installed 8-1/2” Airlift 1000’s on mine earlier this month so time will tell for me. I don’t tow yet with mine but weight in the back sure sagged the ass end before the bags.

That's great! Let me know how those Foxes work out for you.

 

[MAST4R]

On a different note, do you know a source of used parts from junk yards or a reliable source of discounted OEM parts? Lots on ebay but who knows if those are really oem parts.

I am new to Toyota so I have not needed to learn that.

I want to buy 1x steering rods, inner/end to carry for trail spares but I don't want either dealer pricing or a cheapo part that will fail before I am out of the trail, lol.

I see junk yards sell entire racks, which makes sense, but not in my case.