Nose Dive While Braking

[krob5697]

I am looking to specifically address the issue of the front end nose diving while braking. I have a 2016 Trail that is stock and would like to address this issue. Could anyone tell me if I need to change shocks, springs, or both. Front only, front and rear. I am not looking to lift the vehicle but would not mind leveling it out if need be.

Please do not flame me for not searching. I tried to search this subject but only found info that pertained to lifting the vehicle and fixing this problem was an added bonus. I want info that specifically addresses this problem and not a bonus from doing something else.

 

[Lester Lugnut]

My wifes 2014 SR5 2WD does the same. Others will repeat what I just said.

 

[BLACK-FL4RUNNER]

opcorn:

 

[Titanpat57]

no...you didn't search

because if you did, you wouldv'e realized it's been a consistent problem since 2009, and the only fix is a suspension upgrade

 

[Cymon]

I am looking to specifically address the issue of the front end nose diving while braking. I have a 2016 Trail that is stock and would like to address this issue. Could anyone tell me if I need to change shocks, springs, or both. Front only, front and rear. I am not looking to lift the vehicle but would not mind leveling it out if need be.

Please do not flame me for not searching. I tried to search this subject but only found info that pertained to lifting the vehicle and fixing this problem was an added bonus. I want info that specifically addresses this problem and not a bonus from doing something else.

Both, and what you stated with the lift/leveling is how you improve it (it will not be completely fixed because it's a heavy BOF truck). Some also say stiffer sidewall e-load tires. Just know what you're getting into if you change. I would suggest test driving someone with a lift/stiffer suspension truck first before you're $2k in the hole and realize that is not what you really wanted or the driving characteristics you were looking for, for whatever lifestyle you use your truck for.

 

[brockvond]

There really is a lot of information on this topic in various threads, which do not deal solely about lifts. If people see nose dive as a problem, it seems like most switch out struts and/or change tires with stiffer sidewalls (eg stiffer struts and tires with more plies). It seems like most people who switch out struts go to Bilstein 5100s; the front coil overs are adjustable. The rears are not adjustable. If you add these, you can also choose to maintain stock ride height; you don't have to choose a lifted or 'leveled' front ride height. Some also go to Bilstein 6112 front and 5160 rear. Again, the 6112 are adjustable, and include a higher coil spring. The 5160s are not adjustable. The 5100s and 5160s allow for lift.


2016 sr5p super white 4wd

 

[Engineer]

There really is a lot of information on this topic in various threads, which do not deal solely about lifts. If people see nose dive as a problem, it seems like most switch out struts and/or change tires with stiffer sidewalls (eg stiffer struts and tires with more plies). It seems like most people who switch out struts go to Bilstein 5100s; the front coil overs are adjustable. The rears are not adjustable. If you add these, you can also choose to maintain stock ride height; you don't have to choose a lifted or 'leveled' front ride height. Some also go to Bilstein 6112 front and 5160 rear. Again, the 6112 are adjustable, and include a higher coil spring. The 5160s are not adjustable. The 5100s and 5160s allow for lift.


2016 sr5p super white 4wd

^This,

one small detail, we have front coils over and rear shocks, a strut is used in a different type of suspension setup not found on a 4runner.

 

[Copper78]

Yup, noticed the big nose dive. 5100s for me and some good ole BFG KO2's. Had the truck for 3 weeks and cant stop spending money hehe

 

[4FL]

After 18 months of owning, I do not even notice it.

 

[mybabydaddy]

Yeah, you’re probably going to continue to get flamed... sorry... Lots of discussion on this. Short version (IMO), pay the money, swap out stock for 5100s, set the front at .85 and you’re done. A good portion of the nose dive will go away, your ride shouldn’t change too much from stock (and you’ll have reduced the dreaded factory rake as well). Ride will be a smidgen stiffer, but nothing too crazy since you’re only pre-loading fronts a little and not adding spacers to the rear.

 

[philsey]

Yeah, you’re probably going to continue to get flamed... sorry... Lots of discussion on this. Short version (IMO), pay the money, swap out stock for 5100s, set the front at .85 and you’re done. A good portion of the nose dive will go away, your ride shouldn’t change too much from stock (and you’ll have reduced the dreaded factory rake as well). Ride will be a smidgen stiffer, but nothing too crazy since you’re only pre-loading fronts a little and not adding spacers to the rear.

^ This.

no...you didn't search

... and this ^. If you had searched "nose dive", you'd still be reading. Oh, wait, that's harder.

:closed_2:

 

[nevada]

seems to me that changing the suspension is just a bandaid for an improperly biased brake system.

the rear brakes should apply just slightly prior to the fronts, to help prevent this. though, I understand changing springs/shocks is much easier than adjusting the brake bias.

 

[e60ral]

that's, uh... huh?

that's not how brake bias works, you definitely don't want more brake bias in the rear, and changing the brake bias to the rear wouldn't change this

(or am I missing sarcasm?)

 

[nevada]

that's, uh... huh?

that's not how brake bias works, you definitely don't want more brake bias in the rear, and changing the brake bias to the rear wouldn't change this

(or am I missing sarcasm?)

no sarcasm. the rear starts to apply just before the front. to help prevent nose dive. the harder you brake, the pressure biases towards the front, to then prevent the rear tires from skidding.
or at least that's how it should work.

 

[96r50]

I don't understand what the big deal is about the nose dive. Does it make people sea sick or something? I've never paid it any attention since it's just part of driving an offroad-oriented vehicle. It's not an issue, problem, or defect with the suspension, it's just simple physics. You can mask it with a suspension swap for stiffer valving but the trade off is a bumpier ride. Toyota engineered the suspension this way as a happy medium between on road manners and off road comfort.

By all means, swap in stiffer springs or shocks to firm up the front end if that's what you want. Just be aware of the tradeoff you are making and that you're fixing something that isn't actually broken.

 

[e60ral]

[MENTION=84120]nevada[/MENTION]
brake bias is about torque applied by biasing the pressure applied, it's not about timing. I think you may be getting confused thinking about stability control systems which modulate braking to

the reason brakes are front biased is because when you are stopping the weight shifts to the front so there is more weight (i.e. more normal force) on those tires so they will do more of the braking. If you bias to the rear, you would just lockup the rear tire because under braking the normal force decreases in the rear. even if you timed the rear to brake first, it wouldn't prevent the dynamic weight transfer to the front which is what causes the nose dive.

the dynamic weight transfer is a function of the deceleration, not brake timing

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

I disagree. This is not a sports car, its a truck-based, non-unibody vehicle. It is heavy. It has longer travel for offroading and traversing obstacles. Ever since the Toyota Trekker was introduced, 4runners have always been a high-clearance vehicle, even the 2wd models.

If one wanted no brake dive, they should have opted for a FRS instead of a 4runner. SUV's are not sports cars, they do not corner like a Ferrari, they don't hook up and leave two black lines going down the road when their flogged like a Hellcat, and they surely don't stop like a Bugatti Veyron! So why would I expect the nose to stay flat when the brakes are whacked hard?

Does the nose dive cause a situation where the vehicle should be considered too dangerous to drive? Of course not! Its the nature of an SUV, as well as trucks and other luxury-liners and even some compact cars, but if you must eliminate it for you to feel comfortable behind the wheel, then follow the recommendations of the folks above, but please don't say that its a design flaw or improper design of the BRAKES! Sorry, but that's just nonsense! :fish:

 

[e60ral]

I don't understand what the big deal is about the nose dive. Does it make people sea sick or something? I've never paid it any attention since it's just part of driving an offroad-oriented vehicle. It's not an issue, problem, or defect with the suspension, it's just simple physics. You can mask it with a suspension swap for stiffer valving but the trade off is a bumpier ride. Toyota engineered the suspension this way as a happy medium between on road manners and off road comfort.

By all means, swap in stiffer springs or shocks to firm up the front end if that's what you want. Just be aware of the tradeoff you are making and that you're fixing something that isn't actually broken.

its very annoying in stop and go traffic, but if you pretend like you are driving a manual (try to drive at a steady speed even if the gap in front of you changes size, so as not to constantly use the clutch) then its not as bad

 

[Rex_27]

I disagree. This is not a sports car, its a truck-based, non-unibody vehicle. It is heavy. It has longer travel for offroading and traversing obstacles. Ever since the Toyota Trekker was introduced, 4runners have always been a high-clearance vehicle, even the 2wd models.

If one wanted no brake dive, they should have opted for a FRS instead of a 4runner. SUV's are not sports cars, they do not corner like a Ferrari, they don't hook up and leave two black lines going down the road when their flogged like a Hellcat, and they surely don't stop like a Bugatti Veyron! So why would I expect the nose to stay flat when the brakes are whacked hard?

Does the nose dive cause a situation where the vehicle should be considered too dangerous to drive? Of course not! Its the nature of an SUV, as well as trucks and other luxury-liners and even some compact cars, but if you must eliminate it for you to feel comfortable behind the wheel, then follow the recommendations of the folks above, but please don't say that its a design flaw or improper design of the BRAKES! Sorry, but that's just nonsense! :fish:

Agreed! I expected a nose dive on my 15 4Runner, expecially after driving a WRX for 10 years! The nature of the beast.

 

[DaPole]

The nose dive is inherent to a truck such as this, but that doesn't make it less annoying, at least to some. I bought the truck for it's offroading capabilities, but also for other factors such as a decent family vehicle. My most recent car being a sports sedan with a stiffer factory suspension option, and having raced cars in my earlier days, the nose dive is just not comfortable to me. I also don't like looking like I'm slamming on my brakes every time I brake. Obviously in light traffic you can finesse it just fine, but in stop and go rush hour, sometimes you can't.

Anyway, as others have said, an upgraded suspension fixed the issue for me. It'll still "dive" a little, but to me, it's now unnoticeable when I take into account that this is still a truck.