NY Mosque Near Ground Zero

[brian2sun]

I'll tell you something---I bet the majority of Americans would put their religion before their country. I'm not particularly religious, so I don't include myself, but we are generally a country of religious people and I do believe that most people would definitely put religion before country.

I agree. It's just not a problem until they start contradicting eachother. And what happens when they do? War.

 

[LINY4Runner]

Quick question-
How many of you were in downtown Manhattan on September 11th, 2001?
How many of you witnessed with your very eyes, the towers crumbling to the ground?
Who saw the second airliner slam into the south tower?
Did anyone sprint for 20 city blocks to get away from the ash?


You'll never know how it felt to be in the city on that day, so you'll never feel the same way as us New Yorkers about the subject.

 

[004Gunner]

Please read.

I hope that eventually all people opposed to this mosque and cultural center will realize that the fight does not lie with Muslims, or any other religious group. Allowing a mosque to be built within the vicinity of Ground Zero is in no way a sign of defeat. If anything it is a sign that America remains strong. A list of things has changed since 9/11, but American ideals are not on that list. America was not attacked by Muslims on September 11th, 2001; We were attacked by terrorists that were Muslim. I did not fight Muslims in Operation Enduring Freedom or in Operation Iraqi Freedom; I fought insurgents that were Muslim.

 

[Jed]

You'll never know how it felt to be in the city on that day, so you'll never feel the same way as us New Yorkers about the subject.

Don't think for a second that you speak for all New Yorkers, because you don't. I was born and raised a New Yorker. I've never left New York and I doubt that I ever will.

 

[Jed]

Please read.

I hope that eventually all people opposed to this mosque and cultural center will realize that the fight does not lie with Muslims, or any other religious group. Allowing a mosque to be built within the vicinity of Ground Zero is in no way a sign of defeat. If anything it is a sign that America remains strong. A list of things has changed since 9/11, but American ideals are not on that list. America was not attacked by Muslims on September 11th, 2001; We were attacked by terrorists that were Muslim. I did not fight Muslims in Operation Enduring Freedom or in Operation Iraqi Freedom; I fought insurgents that were Muslim.

Agree 1000%. What makes us different as Americans is our respect for freedom (and more specifically freedom of religion), tolerance and rights.

 

[Jed]

Another interesting point:

The media hype about this mosque.....how much of it will disappear after the elections? How much of this is election year posturing? Why did it only recently become "big news" when the plans aren't exactly new?

 

[brian2sun]

I have to say I found Obama's reaction to Pastor Terry Jones' Koran burning session quite interesting. Let me state clearly that I do not support this ridiculous "Burn a Koran Day" event. I think it shows a childish and almost Neo-Nazi mentality and it will not have any positive effect on the issue. If anything it sends a message to the Muslim community that (some) Christians are idiots IMO.

However, what I found interesting was Obama's reaction - which was to threaten to sic the local police and fire dept. on the unruly pastor. He also stated publicly in a conversation with George Stephanopoulos on Good Morning America that the would-be Koran-burners' stunt is "completely contrary to our values as Americans" and later "this country has been built on the notions of religious freedom and religious tolerance." He refused to comment on the "wisdom" of the mosque, but will comment on the wisdom of Jones' event. While I agree with Obama's sentiment towards the pastor, I see a problem with it...

He was quick to publicly defend the 1st Amendment rights of the Muslims to build their mosque near ground zero, but wants to pretend that Pastor Jones' doesn't have the right to burn the Koran. Also, in 2006, he voted against a proposed constitutional amendment that read in full: "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." This was known as the Hatch Amendment and it only failed by one vote. In other words, flag burning would be illegal in this country (at least it appears to me) if Obama would have voted for the amendment, but he did not.

So logic would lead one to believe that Obama wants Americans to have the right to burn the flag of this country, but not a religious book. He also publicly supported the Muslim's rights to build the mosque. But yet he draws his own line, based soley on his opinion or whatever to denounce Pastor Jones' right to burn the Koran. Like I said before, I don't support Koran burning, nor do I support flag burning, nor do I support the mosque, but I recognize their rights to do it.

We don't get to choose what to apply the 1st Amendment to and what not to like Obama apparently thinks he can. You can't support rights on one hand and ignore it on the other. And it down-right scares me personally that the president would stand up against desecration of a religious symbol, but not THE symbol of the country he is president of. What do you guys think of this?

 

[Jed]

However, what I found interesting was Obama's reaction - which was to threaten to sic the local police and fire dept. on the unruly pastor.

When and where did he say that? This is the first time I'm hearing about that...

He was quick to publicly defend the 1st Amendment rights of the Muslims to build their mosque near ground zero, but wants to pretend that Pastor Jones' doesn't have the right to burn the Koran.

Actually, I watched a news clip where Obama did defend his right to burn the Koran. Obviously he wasn't supporting it, but he did acknowledge his right to do it. That's why I asked when and where Obama said that he'll get the local police & fire department to go after Jones. Or was that basically because burning stuff is illegal in Florida? I know that it was acceptable in some states to burn trash/leaves as a means of disposal, but I think that practice has been illegal in most places for some time now.

Also, in 2006, he voted against a proposed constitutional amendment that read in full: "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States." This was known as the Hatch Amendment and it only failed by one vote. In other words, flag burning would be illegal in this country (at least it appears to me) if Obama would have voted for the amendment, but he did not.

So logic would lead one to believe that Obama wants Americans to have the right to burn the flag of this country, but not a religious book.

That's not logic, that's a fallacy.

He also publicly supported the Muslim's rights to build the mosque. But yet he draws his own line, based soley on his opinion or whatever to denounce Pastor Jones' right to burn the Koran.

I'm pretty sure he never went against anyone's right to burn the Koran. If you can find some evidence of that, please post a link. I doubt you'll be able to find anything though...

We don't get to choose what to apply the 1st Amendment to and what not to like Obama apparently thinks he can. You can't support rights on one hand and ignore it on the other. And it down-right scares me personally that the president would stand up against desecration of a religious symbol, but not THE symbol of the country he is president of. What do you guys think of this?

I think you're completely off base here. You have too much misinformation in your post. I think Obama recognizes the rights on both sides, but you're focusing on the fact that he's clearly against burning the Koran, yet he supports building the mosque, at least from a "they have the right to do it" point of view.

I wouldn't even compare those two events because one is obviously based 100% on hatred and is about nothing but destruction to "prove a point" in the mind of an ignorant man. It's apples and oranges for sure...

 

[brian2sun]

When and where did he say that? This is the first time I'm hearing about that...

Here's an article about the FBI contacting the pastor:
FBI meets with (Burn the Koran) Pastor Terry Jones
Obama also cited local fire ordinances that might be used against the church if it proceeds durng his coversation with George Stephanopoulos.

Actually, I watched a news clip where Obama did defend his right to burn the Koran. Obviously he wasn't supporting it, but he did acknowledge his right to do it.

Where did you see that?

That's why I asked when and where Obama said that he'll get the local police & fire department to go after Jones. Or was that basically because burning stuff is illegal in Florida? I know that it was acceptable in some states to burn trash/leaves as a means of disposal, but I think that practice has been illegal in most places for some time now.

It is apparently against fire code, but for the President to worry about enforcement of local laws shows his personal investment in this issue.

That's not logic, that's a fallacy.

I urge you to research the Hatch Amendment. It is not a fallacy that he voted for the people's right to burn the flag, but not a religious book.

I'm pretty sure he never went against anyone's right to burn the Koran. If you can find some evidence of that, please post a link. I doubt you'll be able to find anything though...

He was trying to convince them not to do it. There are a bunch of reasons why I agree it shouldn't be done, but my point is the president showed no such concern for the American flag. And he wasn't trying to convince any of the Muslim leaders that putting their mosque near ground zero is a bad idea because it's insulting to many Americans. So is it all right that millions of Americans (quite possibly the majority even) are insulted, but don't insult Muslims (American or otherwise)? American flags are burned all over the Middle East as a sign of disrespect to Americans. I'm just pointing out that he will support one groups rights and try to curb another one's on the same 1st Amendment.

I think you're completely off base here. You have too much misinformation in your post. I think Obama recognizes the rights on both sides, but you're focusing on the fact that he's clearly against burning the Koran, yet he supports building the mosque, at least from a "they have the right to do it" point of view.

Yes, I am focusing on that fact. Why is he fighting the rights of one group and supporting the other? They both have a right. If fire code was the main issue for the pastor to not burn the Korans, I don't think Obama would have been satisfied if they moved their event to a place where it didn't break fire code.

I wouldn't even compare those two events because one is obviously based 100% on hatred and is about nothing but destruction to "prove a point" in the mind of an ignorant man. It's apples and oranges for sure...

One could just as easily argue that the motives behind putting the mosque at ground zero is based on hatred too, to prove a point to Americans.

The think the events are connected. In fact the latest word is that the Muslim leaders have actually agreed to relocate the mosque because of the controversy the pastor stirred up. I don't know if that will actually happen, but the issues are both strongly connected to 9/11.

I'll say it again, I think burning the Koran is stupid. I think building the mosque near ground zero is stupid, and I think burning the flag is stupid. But I find Obama's stance on each of these issues pretty stupid and contradicting too. That's just my opinion. I obviously don't think Obama is a great president, but I could go on and on about a hundred issues I have with him and the way his admin is running (and changing) this country. I just thought this was relevant.

 

[Jed]

Okay, so it was local fire ordinances. I can understand that....people aren't allowed to just burn whatever they want, especially if doing so is against the law. But the same could be said if he was burning barrels of leaves. Don't look too far into that...

The news clip I referenced was on one of the big network news stations. I think it was NBC, but I'm not 100% sure.

I urge you to research the Hatch Amendment. It is not a fallacy that he voted for the people's right to burn the flag, but not a religious book.

No, that's not the fallacy. The fallacy is the assumption that you are apparently trying to draw from the two statements you mentioned in your post. That's not logic...it's an assumption based upon a fallacy.

He was trying to convince them not to do it. There are a bunch of reasons why I agree it shouldn't be done, but my point is the president showed no such concern for the American flag. And he wasn't trying to convince any of the Muslim leaders that putting their mosque near ground zero is a bad idea because it's insulting to Americans. So is it all right that millions of Americans (quite possibly the majority even) are insulted, but don't insult Muslims (American or otherwise). American flags are burned all over the Middle East as a sign of disrespect to Americans. I'm just pointing out that he will support one groups rights and try to curb another one's on the same 1st Amendment.

Again, there is a COLOSSAL difference between burning a holy book and building a mosque. And if you want to focus on burning American flag, I can assure you that there is plenty of videotaped evidence of Obama saying that people should obviously not burn the flag (any national flag, for that matter). You're basing your argument off Obama voting against an amendment, when there are often more than one reason why politicians vote for/against something. We need to know the whole story before we start throwing him under the bus. I'm not defending him, I'm just thinking critically about the situation.

One could just as easily argue that the motives behind putting the mosque at ground zero is based on hatred too, to prove a point to Americans.

The think the events are connected. In fact the latest word is that the Muslim leaders have actually agreed to relocate the mosque because of the controversy the pastor stirred up. I don't know if that will actually happen, but the issues are both strongly connected to 9/11.

I don't believe that for a minute. And I can't believe you can't find a discernible difference between the two events. The latest thing I hears was that the pastor backed down because he somehow believed that the plans to build the mosque in that location had been canceled. Nobody else has even heard that except the pastor.

 

[LandRvr Convert]

I agree that the Islamists (a true description of them) do indeed have a First Amendment right to construct their mosque on private property in that part of New York City. However, in my judgment, doing so would not be the proper thing to do. The old axiom about could and should comes into play here. They COULD do it, but SHOULD they? I think not.
:lightsaber:

Would the people who vocally support the building of this mosque so close to Ground Zero say the same thing if a neo-Nazi group sought to erect a giant swastika across the street from the Holocaust Museum in DC? What about the Sons Of Confederate Veterans purchasing property in Harlem across the street from Al Sharpton's office - where they would fly a giant Rebel flag?

Me thinks their opinion about supporting our First Amendment rights would reverse itself so quickly, that it would resemble a freight train trying to dig a dirt road backwards!
:toilet:

While we "rednecks" (I prefer the term 'Appalachian American', thank you.) are criticized for being intolerant of others, I would probably say that we might try putting the shoe on the other foot. It would be nice to see the "tolerant" Muslims reciprocate by permitting construction of a church, synagogue or chapel somehwere in Riyadh or Mecca. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander, right? Okay....I won't hold my breath; but if they did that, the negative reaction by most of us in the USA might be placated if the Islamists put forth some tolerance towards outsiders on their turf.

:drummer:

Well said Jeff!! JUDGEMENT is the key word in your post, which actually requires intellect and thinking, and so few people these days are willing to do that. They just say (like a bunch of robots) "the Islamists have the right to build the mosque near ground zero if they wish".

Here is another good analogy to building a mosque near Ground Zero. I live in Atlanta, birthplace of Martin Luther King Jr. (a personal hero of mine, btw). Just an hour or so north of Atlanta many active members of the KKK reside.......I hate to admit this but it's true. The KKK has a right to build their own museum right next to the MLK birthplace and museum right????. Do they have the right to do this???? yes. Is it appropriate..........NO! Is it a good idea??? NO!

If you slide the seat back far enough in your 4Runner, you could steer it with your feet.......is that a good idea????? NO.

Just for the record, I am white with blonde hair and blue eyes and my family is from northern Europe.

I just can't understand (any American with an ounce of feeling in his/her heart and just a little bit of a brain that can think) would support the building of this mosque.

In this very unique situation we have in Manhattan, I think the best way to decide if this mosque should be built or not is take a vote................BUT, the ONLY people who would be able to vote, would be people who lost a family member in 9/11 and ALL NYPD and FDNY............ period.

Anyone care to guess how that vote would go??????????

 

[Jed]

In this very unique situation we have in Manhattan, I think the best way to decide if this mosque should be built or not is take a vote................BUT, the ONLY people who would be able to vote, would be people who lost a family member in 9/11 and ALL NYPD and FDNY............ period.

Anyone care to guess how that vote would go??????????

Well, that's obvious. People who were directly affected by losing a family member are still hurting and would be biased against the mosque. That's like asking us if Obama would have been elected if ONLY KKK member were allowed to vote in the election. LOL.

BTW, recent polls here in NY are split just about dead even (nearly 50/50) for and against the mosque. But you also have to realize there is a difference between supporting their right to build it and supporting it's actual construction. If you can't see the difference, there's nothing I can do to help you out. Lots of New Yorkers support their right to build, but still would rather see it built somewhere else instead.

 

[Jed]

So whatever happened with the Koran burning? The date passed and I heard nothing about it on the news. I guess he didn't do it?:bravo:

 

[brian2sun]

Well, that's obvious. People who were directly affected by losing a family member are still hurting and would be biased against the mosque.

Doesn't that say it all? Why are we defending someone's right to upset people that are still hurting. Just because they can and it's legal? THAT is NOT the mentality that made this country great. And the Muslims want respect and equality in this country. I know a great way of obtaining that... respect your fellow Americans and have some Goddamn courtesy.

BTW, not sure what happended with the Koran burning either. It's like the whole story fell off the face of the Earth.

 

[Jed]

Doesn't that say it all? Why are we defending someone's right to upset people that are still hurting.

That's NOT what we are defending and you know that!

BTW, not sure what happended with the Koran burning either. It's like the whole story fell off the face of the Earth.

Yeah, isn't that strange? Maybe the media made a pact to ignore that guy and his story. After all, he was all about getting the attention in the first place. I haven't heard one word about him since Sep. 10th.

 

[brian2sun]

That's NOT what we are defending and you know that!

Haha, I had to slip it in. I personally just can't get over the "why". It's just so wrong to do that to your fellow Americans IMO. I swear, that's just the kind of stuff that divides our nation, when what we need most is unity. Whether it's right or wrong, legal or illegal, it really doesn't matter. It's the fact that the media and whoever is constantly trying to divide the citizens on every little issue that can possibly come up. And little by little, that has a big effect on the country as a whole. This country has a fetish with trying to set its citizens on opposing sides and that keeps us from realizing our full potential.

I don't think this mosque will have a good effect for the Muslim community and how it's seen and treated by the rest of America. So they proved a point - they have the right to do it. But is that worth setting the racist clock back like 20 years? I think a lot of Americans that didn't have anything against Muslim Americans now have a reason to dislike them and I feel they are doing their own community more harm than good.

Isn't that strange? Maybe the media made a pact to ignore that guy and his story. After all, he was all about getting the attention in the first place. I haven't heard one word about him since Sep. 10th.

Yeah, I guess the controversy and the potential to set the citizens at opposite sides of that issue has burnt out. What will they find to stir up racial tensions and overall dissatisfaction with this country next?

 

[004Gunner]

BTW, not sure what happended with the Koran burning either. It's like the whole story fell off the face of the Earth.

I read that the pastor called it off because he claimed to have been under the impression that the mosque was not going to be built near ground zero after speaking with an imam. The updated story. I wonder if Fox News broadcasted the update? :jump:

 

[Jed]

I read that the pastor called it off because he claimed to have been under the impression that the mosque was not going to be built near ground zero after speaking with an imam. The updated story. I wonder if Fox News broadcasted the update? :jump:

Yeah, but that's old news. That nutcase was on the news a few days before the 9/11 anniversary claiming that he had been told by the Imam that the plans to build the mosque near Ground Zero were canceled. Strangely, nobody in the media knew anything about the plans changing. I think he just made up a bogus story to save face after all his tough talk about burning the Koran. Maybe someone paid him a visit down in Florida and urged him not to do it, if you know what I mean.

 

[Jed]

Found a good interview where Jones explains his decision to not burn the Koran:

Pastor Terry Jones: 'We will not burn the Quran' - U.S. news - Security - msnbc.com

 

[LTX4RUNNER]

From most of the comments here, I think that the EXTREMISTS have accomplished exactly what they wanted. To divide us. Do you not pray for the people who died on 9/11 that where Muslims? Not to overuse this saying, but if Jesus was making the decision, what would he do? A lot of us use this saying, but don't really think about it. It's a line to show their faith to others but they never really answer the question. What happened to tolerance and loving your neighbor? Maybe only when it benefits your beliefs. Maybe I didn't read that part in the bible.

In the countries that I work, a good percentage of the people are Muslims. And almost all would love to be an American. They look at us like we are lucky, and that we have great opportunities. If only they had the same, some have said.

I don't think we should be so quick to judge. I think that we make so many assumptions about other people and have never even been out of our own state, much less the country. You will never appreciate what we truly have here and be tolerant of others until you traveled abroad. Don't believe what you hear on TV about everyone hating us. You would be surprised how you get treated by other countries when they find out you are an American. They look at you with hope. Travel, see for yourself.

As for not allowing a Mosque HERE until a church can be built THERE...come on people. Really? They are not us. That is what makes us America. That is childish behavior. I won't until he does. Are we in grade school? We shouldn't expect them to be like us. That is what makes us different.

Anyways...just what I think.

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.” —Mark Twain, 1857