Off roaders = reliability?

[lockerc18]

I imagine this has been discussed here in bits and pieces, but I couldn't find a thread which addressed this specifically, so here goes.....

There are many reasons why I bought my 4Runner, but one reason was that I believed that a vehicle which was designed to be off-road capable would have stronger components and a more rugged design in general, and these would lead to higher reliability over time. Some of the reliability is due to the vehicle being a Toyota, of course. But I have to think that things like the suspension, transmission, engine, body rigidity, etc., which make the 4Runner so good off-road also make it more durable, especially for someone like me who hardly ever brings the truck off-road, if at all. Is this right?

Where this theory falls down is when you look at Jeeps. They are the prototypical off road vehicles, but they fall apart pretty easily. At least, the reliability of Jeeps clearly isn't anywhere near what you see in a Toyota vehicle.

I ask all this because I've been reading about the GMC Acadia, which to me is more of a minivan replacement than a true SUV. And it's a crossover, not a real SUV, so it's not really meant for taking offroad. But, it looks like GMC came up with a real winner in this vehicle. The question is, which won't be answerable until these vehicles get onto the road in large numbers, is how reliable they will be. Given GMC's track record, I have to think they'll be as reliable as other GMC products, which means they won't approach a Toyota by far. But from a features standpoint, there are many things in the Acadia and its siblings which would make it more appealing than a 4Runner. I tend to think that the main thing that would distinguish a 4Runner against a vehicle like the Acadia is its off-road prowess, and also its reliability. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with my 4Runner, but when it comes time to get something new, I'll be looking at Acadias, too, and I never thought I'd hear myself saying that I'd look at a GMC product.

So, getting back to the original point here, is it true that the basic premise of designing a vehicle to be taken off road also makes it more durable and reliable over time? And, also, how competitive to the 4Runner will the Acadia be? I know they have somewhat different design points and target demographics, but you know shoppers will be looking at both.

 

[Falls]

It all depends what floats your boat , I like truck based SUV's because they are ruggedly built, good off roaders , full framed , ect..... There are very few to pick from in this category.

Everyone has its own uses and everybody has their own needs.

A regular SUV ( unibody carlike) , Crossover , car , mini-van has no business being in my garage.

I think the Jeep Rubicon is a good offroader , as for the other SUV's I personally think they are no more and probably less capable than than the 4R , but most deff. not nearly as tough.

 

[Uneek]

IMO, reliability comes from build quality. For Toyota, it's their emphasis on finding defects as the vehicle moves down the assembly line rather than when it rolls out of the factory. Also, it's in the culture of the workers who put together Toyota vehicles. There are numerous case studies done on Toyota and the Toyota Way, I was fortunate enough to be in a business class during my college years that did one. Management encourages employees to find defects, problems and suggest solutions to make products better and work more efficient.

If the vehicle is intended to be taken off-road, used as workhorse, cruising in luxury, then I believe the design would aimed towards the use. A off-road vehicle would probably have beefier suspension. Trucks probably have more durable and heavy duty parts/components. Luxury cars probably have more insulation and extra thick foam that keeps wires from rubbing and squeaking.

I chose the 4Runner, because I wanted a SUV that's truck based, making it more rugged and can take a beating if and when I want to go off-road. Furthermore, truck based SUV have higher towing capacities than a car based or crossover. You can probably run over curbs in a 4Runner without putting the alignment out of whack, try that in a Pilot. Speaking of which, I love how Honda advertise that they have a line of trucks. What trucks... lifted Accord wagons and sedans with open trunks and lifted Civic wagons?

 

[Falls]

IMO, Speaking of which, I love how Honda advertise that they have a line of trucks. What trucks... lifted Accord wagons and sedans with open trunks and lifted Civic wagons?

Uneek , isn't that commercial a hoot ?? They pull up this line of carlike wagons and that sedan with a box ( unibody I might add) and call them the "Honda line of trucks" .... The general public buys right into it ..................LORD , help them.....

The 4R can take a good pounding thats for damn sure , one tough truck IMO. As for hitting the curb thing , yes I did that to at a pretty good speed of about 10mph ( I would guess) went up and over and off the other side with all tires. I know how this truck is built and was more worried about my "P" rated Revos handling it than the truck .... lol

 

[boston_kevin]

I'll probably get some grief for this, but... Full Sized GM SUV's (Tahoe, Yukon, Suburband) have fantastic reliability records according to multiple groups (C&D, MT, Consumer Reports, Edmunds, etc). Off-road they are very capable providing you stay within the limitations of the vehicle (i.e. Long Wheel Baswe, Wide track, not the greatest ground clearance). GMC SUV's are used throughout the world for off-roading through sandy areas. That being said, their next level down (Envoy, Trailblazer) is really bad.

Most people would not off-road with a full sized SUV strictly due to it's size (after all, how many Sequoia's do you see crawling up rocky trails).

 

[gizmopt2002]

The 4Runna takes curbs and huge bumps very well. During the winter i hit the curb at 20mph because the road had black ice, it was turn too, and absolutely nothing bad happened,just a scary thump sound. I also had to go over curbs to get to the other side of traffic, and those curbs were beastly.

 

[AgeOfEmpires]

... Full Sized GM SUV's (Tahoe, Yukon, Suburband) have fantastic reliability records ...

I guess that depends on your definition of "fantastic". Historical reliablity on those models has been far less than steallar, I believe. Right now they have good reliability numbers because they are new models. How will they age over time? If it is anything like the typical GM products, that "fantastic" rating will drop precipitously a year or so down the road.

 

[Falls]

My 04 Z71 Tahoe was a damn nice truck , but a POS , hence the new Toyota 4R came into play.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

JD Power ranks Tahoes,Yukons,etc. as all just average while most of the Toyota line was above average.

 

[Falls]

JD Power ranks Tahoes,Yukons,etc. as all just average while most of the Toyota line was above average.

I wonder what years that covers ? They always BS because the H3 was rated good for problems when they first came out , (gm was so proud) and as more of them hit the road , got a year or 2 old those numbers went in the crapper.

GM seems to be doing the same thing with the new 900 platforms ( Tahoe , Subs , Danali , Yukon ) about the problem rate , duh....they just came out.

 

[pipspeak]

Don't dis Jeeps!

Where this theory falls down is when you look at Jeeps. They are the prototypical off road vehicles, but they fall apart pretty easily. At least, the reliability of Jeeps clearly isn't anywhere near what you see in a Toyota vehicle.

As others have mentioned, reliability is a bit of a moving target. It depends on build quality, how the vehicle is used, how it is taken care of, what day of the week it was constructed etc. etc.

My last car was a 1997 Jeep Cherokee and in the five years I owned it I never had a major problem. A couple of engine seals needed replacing but that was all, over and above the usual maintenance stuff. Moreover, that thing was built simple and built strong. I kinda miss it now I'm driving a bloated, bleeping, computer-controlled 4runner surrounded by acres of plastic cladding.

The much-vaunted Toyota build quality is not especially evident so far to me. In fact, I've had more minor problems with my 4runner in the last year than I had with my Jeep in five. Sunroof issues, rattles, drivetrain bump, sticking hubs, flickering interior lights etc. That's why I bought an extended warranty.

 

[boston_kevin]

Our 2000 GMC Yukon has almost 150k miles on it with only needing new tires, new brake pads, a windshield washer tank, and regular maintenance. It goes off-road on the beach every summer and tows the boat (when I am not using the 4runner).

<B>JD Power ranks Tahoes,Yukons,etc. as all just average while most of the Toyota line was above average.</B>

The JDPower report I found only goes back to 2001, but their rating for everything except the styling and the interior design was above average. Mechanical quality on the Yukon is actually slightly above the 4Runner for a 2002 GMC Yukon vs a 2003 4Runner. Actually they are virtually even in every category except body & interior quality and feature and accessory quality (each takes one category).

 

[Falls]

Re: Don't dis Jeeps!

Dont know what you mean by bloated ???? But as for the other stuff I can see , except for the plastic cladding , every vehicle is so full of plastic its not even funny. I find the plastic ( dash , ect... ) to be way better quality than my Tahoe , the new style is nicer though.

You can get good and bad with anything you buy.

We had a Camry that was flawless , a woman at work had one the was a POS . If you had that good of luck with your Jeep , consider yourself the few and proud .... lol. We rented a GC for a weekend to see if we would like it , then very next day it was on a flat bed with no tranny , BUT it was a rental vehicle , even though it only had 3k miles on it.

As others have mentioned, reliability is a bit of a moving target. It depends on build quality, how the vehicle is used, how it is taken care of, what day of the week it was constructed etc. etc.

My last car was a 1997 Jeep Cherokee and in the five years I owned it I never had a major problem. A couple of engine seals needed replacing but that was all, over and above the usual maintenance stuff. Moreover, that thing was built simple and built strong. I kinda miss it now I'm driving a bloated, bleeping, computer-controlled 4runner surrounded by acres of plastic cladding.

The much-vaunted Toyota build quality is not especially evident so far to me. In fact, I've had more minor problems with my 4runner in the last year than I had with my Jeep in five. Sunroof issues, rattles, drivetrain bump, sticking hubs, flickering interior lights etc. That's why I bought an extended warranty.

 

[pipspeak]

Re: Re: Don't dis Jeeps!

Dont know what you mean by bloated ????

...bloated in the sense of "why does this truck have to be so long and so wide". Considering the wheelbase there seems to be a lot (of mainly plastic) sticking out at each end, which IMO barely qualifies it as "midsize".

Cars and trucks just seem to keep getting bigger with every new version.

How did you find the GC during your tranny-killing test drive?

 

[Falls]

They gave us a different one ( also an 04 ) it had the 6 cyl. I think it was the inline 4.0 L. I really pounded it and put it through alot of off roading and it did really well and had a blast with it..

Took about $20 at the power washer car wash before I turned it in , but was worth it . I had a lot of fun with it , but to be honest I just could not get past the Chrysler thing ( I know stupid )

I honestly was disappointed when the new GC came out and went from a solid front axle to ind. front sus. A lot of Jeeper guys were not happy with that either.

The Jeeps really built themselves on an off road reputation ( rightfully so in the past ) but except for the Rubicon I personally think they wimped them out like every other mfg. has with SUVs. I also agree about everything getting bigger & bigger , the next gen 4R will be even bigger I think since the highlander is going to get bigger and will be close to the 4R size so I expect the 4R to get bigger too.

There are not many SUV's that are off road capable anymore , most all have uni-body ( another GC disappointment ) I'm glad SO FAR the 4R has kept the truck theme in mind , but who knows what the next gen. will bring. ( I also hate the rounded off look like some are going to , they look like little rolling eggs with wheels) Hope Toyota does not go that route either with the 4R.

 

[Thai]

There are not many SUV's that are off road capable anymore , most all have uni-body ( another GC disappointment ) I'm glad SO FAR the 4R has kept the truck theme in mind , but who knows what the next gen. will bring. ( I also hate the rounded off look like some are going to , they look like little rolling eggs with wheels) Hope Toyota does not go that route either with the 4R.

Agree with above...it's the maker that makes the difference in durability and reliability, not the actual body-on-frame design.

I am 99.999% sure that Toyota will stick with body-on-frame design for the next 4runner generation. They already have the Highlander and RAV4 for the unibody (aka soccer mom) crowd. The new Land Cruiser/LX will be body-on-frame with solid rear axle (as per info so far)...thus, Toyota still believes in it. And Toyota really really knows how to build a body-on-frame SUV (& solid rear axle) and makes it comfy.

I agree with you about Jeep's recent designs...pure disappointment. I am just happy that they got the Jeep JK Wrangler right...gotta give them credit for sticking with solid axles!

 

[drake3]

I wish there were a directly relation between capability and reliability. The more you venture away from civilization the more you need both charactertistics. It seems that most people who get into trouble far away from the grid suffer either from ignorance or equipment failure, less from just bad luck.

If the equation was true then Baha trophy trucks and BMW enduro bikes would be some of the most reliable vehicles in the world. (That does hold true for Bimmers!)

 

[pipspeak]

There are not many SUV's that are off road capable anymore , most all have uni-body ( another GC disappointment ) I'm glad SO FAR the 4R has kept the truck theme in mind , but who knows what the next gen. will bring. ( I also hate the rounded off look like some are going to , they look like little rolling eggs with wheels) Hope Toyota does not go that route either with the 4R.

I hope boxy will come back into fashion. It already sort of is... the new Jeeps and the new Pathfinder are pretty boxy. In fact I think the pathfinder is one of the best-looking midsize SUVs out there. Shame about the what's under the skin.

I'm fascinated to see how the SUV market will continue. As more crossover vehicles come out I cannot see manufacturers being able to sustain so many different large SUV models. Aleady GM is scrappign some so perhaps a whole new class will emerge like the FJ -- SUVs that are built for off-roading first and foremost rather than sorta-off-road-capable pavement pounders.